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Viper MkIII Build

Discussion in 'Game Discussion & Feedback' started by cityhunter91, Dec 15, 2018.

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  1. cityhunter91

    cityhunter91 Forum-Greenhorn

    Hello forums o7

    I'd like to ask a pair of things but first my build

    4x SR -P

    1x Damage Buff
    1x Avoidance Buff

    2x Armor Plates
    1x DC

    2x Gyrostabilizers
    2x RCS Ducts

    this ship is built to be a dogfighter. Now the questions:

    1) Is this ship really the best dogfighter in the game? I read it so in old threads but recently asI started field testing I get completely hammered by raiders.

    If I can't play with speed/manouverability how do I weigh my superior HP?

    2) The avoidance buff: worth keeping/upgrading or should I swap for say, an avoidance de-buff (I prefer not to use EW on other than my command ships). So far it saved me when I should have died, or at least I think so.

    That is all. General suggestions are welcome.
    Nice forums and nice game, a pity to see both dead.
     
  2. Avenger12

    Avenger12 Forum Overlooker

    although i don't main a mk3, i can tell you what works for me on the mk2, the mk7, and the raptor.

    mk2 set-up:
    guns:2 mediums, 2 shorts (never P guns)
    computers: weapon buff, avoidence debuff
    hulls: HT composite, DC pack
    engines: 4 avoidence ducts, 1 slider

    mk7 set-up:
    guns: 3 longs, 2 mediums or 5 longs (never P guns)
    computers: weapon buff, speed buff, avoidence debuff
    hulls: 1 armor, 1 HT composite, DC pack or HT composite, 2 DC packs (varies with weapon set-up)
    engines: 2 avoidence ducts, 1 slider

    raptor set-up:
    guns: 2 mediums, 2 shorts or 2 mediums, 2 longs (never P guns)
    computers: E-War or emitter, speed buff, weapon buff, avoidence debuff, speed debuff
    hulls: HT composite, DC pack
    engines: 1 avoidence duct, 1 slider
     
  3. Niki*^*

    Niki*^* Forum Baron

    it is a good built for 1vs1 but as always there are builts that can overcome this easily... If you use it on map you are just easy prey for the faster ships!
     
  4. SixSixSeven

    SixSixSeven Living Forum Legend

    Nah, with 4x RCS and superior HP/armor/power you'll chew up Raiders easily, as long as you can hang in a turn fight. The B&C ships just turn "weird" but easy to get the hang of with some practice.
    P guns are lousy. Their range/optimal is very small and they don't crit much more than regular guns.
    That seems like overkill. The B&C ships turn very well, with practice, and you're giving up a lot of RCS. Many Raiders run 5xRCS. As much as I hate turn/speed debuffs you could use one of those instead of two gyros.
    I like buffs because I can also share them, but you can opt for the melt: dmg+ avoid-. Make sure you use them together within optimal and keep guns on target the whole 5 seconds, and you'll eat most of the HP off a strike.
    Not the worst build, but mk2/Raider benefits more from hull plates, IIRC from some old forum posts. Denali in specific, I think.
    HT composite plates aren't very good - you don't get much of what's worthwhile. If you're running DCs, esp. 2 you really want armor, which is also better for turning. There's a reason most of the good merit ships run armor/DCs.
     
    MR_JINGLES, JBRON and bizzarrofurioso like this.
  5. -evaknow-

    -evaknow- Forum Freak

    On a Mk 3 for turn fighting I would use:

    4 x shorts (don't buy p guns. they are terrible)

    1 x avoidance buff (never leave home without it on a strike). If you want to fight strikes use the avoidance debuff too. If you want to fight anything and everything, use a weapons buff. Early game it makes more sense to use two buffs because it means you can focus your skill training.

    2 x armor is good. Early game I would do 3 x armor and ignore the DC. It cost you cubits to run and will just give you another skill tree to worry about. You're better off with focused skill training. Armor does slow you down in a turn so you can make an argument for 2x armor, 1 x HP.

    4 x RCS. The base stats are already like adding a gyro or two over every other ship in the game.
     
    MR_JINGLES, Valkayser, JBRON and 2 others like this.
  6. SEBY231

    SEBY231 Forum Freak

    full boosters,speed + and speed -
    that's what almost every player is using on mk2/3 right now
    And I really really have NO IDEA why the frak it is used by so many of them
     
  7. Avenger12

    Avenger12 Forum Overlooker

    because most EU strikes don't know to actually dogfight without their opponent being immobilized. the upside is that, with them running all turbos, my KKCs kill strikes alot easier :D
     
  8. cityhunter91

    cityhunter91 Forum-Greenhorn

    Thank you all for your kind replies!

    I was considering switcing out the -P guns but since i'm stuck with 2xSR-P lvl8 (I also have 2xSR lvl8) from my early days, I got to find an use for them.

    Things I figured out while turn-fighting NPCs and a few players:
    1) I don't really need the optimal range bonus, 275m is fine with a little boost
    2) I get absolutely out-turned by even newbie player raiders, that's why I run 2x gyros and I still lose.
    Either is my technique lacking (right click and WASD while in padlock mode) or, I ask again, is this ship really the best dogfighter in game? Stats say it has less turn rate than a mkII/raider (and my experience of having them glued to my six proves it) but I read old forum posts saying it's the best turning ship in the game. Am I missing something?

    I ask before investing more time farming/cubits, if it can't dogfight I'd rather find it another use.
     
  9. iggy_pops

    iggy_pops Forum Commissioner


    LMAO and EU players call our builds on the US server outdated. to combat that build all I would have to do is slide.. turn around and melt (weapons + and avoid -) and poof they're dead.
     
    JBRON and SixSixSeven like this.
  10. Avenger12

    Avenger12 Forum Overlooker

    ^^ditto. i haven't gotten a WR up to do that yet, though. been working on a liche for dailies...although i might buy and advance a WR just to kite and troll them fools
     
    JBRON and SixSixSeven like this.
  11. Phaaze

    Phaaze Forum Ambassador

    Normally, like on a mk7/war raider, any P-guns are a terrible choice because it is random if and when you will be within the optimal of p series guns. But... Since you're running a B&C ship which is faster than a mk7/war raider by default, this shifts the chances in your favor that you are up close and well within optimal range - even against sliders. Also, you have 4 guns while your average opponent (a merit strike) would have 5. Since you will more often than not engage in optimal range, and you are outgunned, you need all the extra damage you can get. That's why I'd say the P guns would be acceptable here. I'm not saying they are the best, I'm not saying they are crap. I'm saying they will work. Depending on how many short-P's you have, you could always run 2 and 2; 2 P's and 2 non-P's, all 4 being shorts.

    Others might have a different opinion, that just means different things to try out for yourself. Fact of the matter, is that IF you engage within their optimal its probably going to be worthwhile to run P guns. Dogfighting/turnfighting is where P series guns shine, whether or not they are better than their respective non-P variants are determined by the dynamics of the fight. My set of short-P's aren't good outside of around 300. But once within that, they melt better than my higher level mids.

    I always have an attack buff on hand, and with shorts it only makes sense to run an attack buff because shorts can make the most use of it. I would never build a ship meant for combat without an attack buff.

    As far as turning goes, are you using advanced flight controls? If not, turn it on. Personally, 2 gyros is too much because you'll overturn more often than not - if you are running advanced flight controls with BAMS. You should have no issues turning while running 4 ducts if you use BAMS + adv flight controls. Camera is up to you.

    ...
    Here's something important about strikes - they are dirt cheap to build. You can easily level up your current set of short-P's, and have a set of mediums and so on. So, don't think that you can only do things one way as far as leveling up your gear.

    The most important thing about strikes, is something I've always taught strikes that I've trained back when I was in a strike oriented wing. That is a simple principle: Its your strike, you know what you most often get into. So, your main build should focus on excelling at that.
     
    MR_JINGLES, JBRON and SixSixSeven like this.
  12. -evaknow-

    -evaknow- Forum Freak

    I would replace the guns one at a time. Weapons sale is next weekend. Start saving them cubits! P guns are terrible because they capped the chance to crit at 10%. A standard gun has something like a 6% chance to crit. Exchanging damage falloff for 4% increase on chance to crit is a raw deal. Trust me and change them before you spend another 80k on p guns :)

    It is the best turning ship. The Raider/MKII is the third best turning ship. Turn rate means less than inertia/speed/acceleration. It's hard to advise you on technique without knowing what you're doing. Do you use CAMS or BAMS? If you use BAMS, did you go into options and turn on Advanced flight controls?
     
    JBRON likes this.
  13. SixSixSeven

    SixSixSeven Living Forum Legend

    They think they can rush in on a fight, get a gank credit, then run away. There's a couple trying that on the US server. I just wait patiently and melt them.
    Nah, just do your dailies. You can replace them with 2 lvl 10+ SRs (non-P) at the next weapon sale. Lvl 8 is cheap to toss away.

    I also own a couple short-P's at lvl 10 that someone talked me into. They barely crit more than regulars, still use the SR power, and have much less range/optimal. You'd do way more damage with regular SRs.
    If you're using BAMS, learn AFC (Advanced Flight Controls) which can set to toggle on/off.

    You might be dealing w/CAMS players but while a mk2/Raider can outturn you, it's just a matter of practice, and while they may have guns on you more often, you'll still win due to armor/HP advantage.
    Technically the regulars have a 1-in-20 (5%) chance to crit, and the p-guns 1-in-19 (10%) but I've found your estimate to be more realistic, about 6% for regulars. The only way the p-guns might be helpful is in a really long, many minute turnfight.
    This.

    If the OP is being majorly outturned in fights then practice is needed. Find some strike buddies and duel. Unless you're dealing with a Raider running a gyro, it shouldn't be a problem, and even if they are, they tend to overturn more than not, because while the Raider/mk2 are fast turning ships, they're also sloppy, which the B&C's are not.
     
  14. iggy_pops

    iggy_pops Forum Commissioner

    Speaking of gyros. A few years back just for kicks and giggles I put 5 level 2 gyros on the raider. Bad idea. I almost tossed my cookies. Though I am sure the Jack Daniels didn't help my case. XD
     
    -evaknow-, JBRON and SixSixSeven like this.
  15. JBRON

    JBRON Forum Ambassador

    SO MANY PEARLS HERE CITY!!!!! Really... every post so far has been from REALLY GREAT players who love this game!!!!! Kinda rare I must say.

    My 2 cubits.... P's are not worthless if ALL you do is duel. I have stories about "top-notch" duelers that ran p-s on the sly ( aka...liars.) Just so you know..... 'Turn-fighting' is a niche dynamic! Now that I said that here comes the hammer..... good turners win. The endgame is almost always who got guns on first or longest....at the right time! I've NEVER met a good pilot who can't turn!

    Let's call strike 'Turnfighting' the lowest common denominator..... that is not a slight.... you simply cannot win unless you can 'turn.' But it is 1/10th of a strikes ability! It is just the 'most essential' of skills as a strike!


    That said..... everyone of those great turning pilots swapped their p-guns for longer range guns when they fly in fleet!

    P-guns are DOMINANT if your opponent decides to to fight you up close in a pure Strike...short-range turning scenario

    P's are ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS in open space combat...period end.

    Range Control is 90% of a strikes ( any ship's) power!


    Tell us your play-style....... If you tell me this I will have very specific advice.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  16. cityhunter91

    cityhunter91 Forum-Greenhorn

    I'm trying out my set of normal guns and I can say there's no much difference in dps, while I start engaging from farther away.
    They kill liners just as fine as P guns.

    For the set of P guns I'm stuck with (I can't sell them -_-; ) I'll stick to the original plan, that is, equip them to my mk7 along with 3 normal (when I'll advance it) for the extra punch when I get up close

    I'll keep the gyros for the time being, as I learn how to dogfight. If I ever feel confident enough I'll replace them with RCS - but I feel 2 RCS + avoid buff is enough unless I screw up and get ganged on, and if I do no RCS will save me.

    Thank you all for your replies and insights, they have been really helpful and I'll make tresure of them.
     
    SixSixSeven likes this.
  17. MR_JINGLES

    MR_JINGLES Forum Duke

    This is my thoughts, I'm not the best strike out there. I've always considered my self mediocre at best, but I've been around to long enough to learn a few things. If your going to specialize in turn fighting get rid of the gyros, you need to learn to turn fight with out them. Also avoidance is life, you can't have enough avoidance in my opinion fill those engine slots with rcs. Make sure your throttle is turned up going into a fight. Work on your keyboard prowess. Lose the mouse if you can. Use hot keys so your not in the middle of a fight tryin to click comps with your mouse. Learn good timing when using your comps. The timing is important, when to use what, while this one is cooling off this one is ready to use and so on.
     
  18. djinni

    djinni Count Count

    My current MKIII:

    4 shorts
    3 armor
    avoid + -
    3 rcs, turbo
     
    SixSixSeven and -evaknow- like this.
  19. -evaknow-

    -evaknow- Forum Freak

    Results of a weapons test I did a few years ago. I think my sample was something like 1200 individual, timed dps test at different ranges. watch the range in your fights. If your turn style doesn't keep you within 250 of your target at all times, you should change guns. I know my turn style doesn't favor p guns. What this graph won't show you is the advantage of doing 300+ damage before your opponent even starts landing hits. Getting in range is just as much a part of the fight as the turning.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Phaaze

    Phaaze Forum Ambassador

    Interesting how the X guns preform the best at the most extreme range here, and how they outpace the SR-P guns despite having mostly similar stats (optimal range) but less accuracy (and 900 range of course).
     
    -evaknow- likes this.

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