boss compensation

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by GroovieGimp, Dec 25, 2014.

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  1. GroovieGimp

    GroovieGimp Forum Apprentice

    Why is is it so hard to provide adequate compensation for killing the bosses. I mean, if I kill the boss, any boss, and all I get in return is unworked equipment or a lousy gem, and a few measely coppers, how does that make me a winner? If I spend more in resources just getting there, or to stay alive than what I receive when I beat the boss, it still comes off as a loss.

    How about a little quid pro quo here, huh?

    What appreciation or respect does that show a player?

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not greedy, or demanding uniques or whatever, but I do believe that a reward should be a reward for the effort put in, rather than a price to play for admission.

    Again, I'm referring to the result of beating the boss, not dying and losing.

    The way things are now I feel like I'm just playing some screwed up slot machine. I play this game to entertain myself, but this is not entertaining at all, just a losing investiture, and frankly, it is this reality that forces me to question whether the game is even worth the effort.

    There certainly isn't any sense of accomplishment, not when this ends up just being another expense. Especially in a game already overburdened with prohibitive playing costs.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2014
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  2. Darwarren

    Darwarren Count Count

    You are not alone. It's an ongoing discussion here in the forum: why don't the rewards fit the work? It's been that way for years.

    It may have to do with the international mix of players and cultures. But it doesn't set well with American values, or law for that matter. That's what we get for being the last ones to the table.

    Generally the programmers take a shot at whatever short-term goals they have. If it works well or not, it sticks; the coding is too complex for them to fix, without massive screw-ups in other places. They just "move on" to the next task. It takes a major glitch to warrant fixing. It's not their pain in their ass, unless enough people complain about it.

    There are plenty of examples. And they can't run some old events, because the coding was trashed in new releases.

    The Frosty Wasteland was an issue last year. It's still a lousy return on investment, except for the most massively powered, bored to tears, champions. DSO wanted something tough, a little extra to finish off the Solstice Event, and that's what they made.

    At least DSO stopped advertising themselves as "the masterpiece." LOL
     
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  3. GroovieGimp

    GroovieGimp Forum Apprentice

    It can't be a programming issue; it just does not make sense. I've been programming and writing code for 20+ years. The development team has an active role in this game. Coding that obtuse is simply artifact heavy.

    Aside from that, the change I'm proposing is merely a variable change, an effect that is much easier to implement, and doesn't require new code, like introducing an animation, such as was provided earlier in the event, like the dancing or the rockets.

    Lastly, the variable already has been enabled in this game: the unique that provides a higher drop rate...
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2014
  4. MegaNuker

    MegaNuker Forum Ambassador

    How about suggestions about what you looking for. I will make a suggestion and you tell me if this is what your asking and if I miss the mark please let me know where I missed it.

    A repeatable quest for bosses like mortis and destructor and any other new bosses the add to the game. The compensation can be stuff like red essance gold anderment or hp pots. Also can be a random chest like the daily or the first time you beat karbosa ect.
     
    GroovieGimp likes this.
  5. Darwarren

    Darwarren Count Count

    --MERGED--

    Are you assuming they operate on your level?
    Someone makes those decisions. Take a good look at the faces in the Christmas video on https://www.facebook.com/drakensangonline, and tell me it can't happen.
     
    Last edited by moderator: Dec 25, 2014
  6. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Yes ... bosses should drop better items. No matter if they are on normal maps or PW.
     
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  7. BigPapa

    BigPapa Forum Overlooker

    First, thank you for well worded posts.

    The random tables BP uses have those rewards on them we all want but more likely the probability gives us the lower end drops. When the multiple tables for each drop line hit low we end up with a Karaboosa kill that has only greens or a Khally kill with coin and a single pink. But you know both of those bosses have what you want, and that idea makes you go back again and again and again. It is VERY intentional.

    BP uses a higher level of thinking on this stuff. It is a psychological schedule of Random or Intermittent reinforcement from B.F. Skinner's research on behaviorism. He studied what makes people do what the do. Random reinforcement and Intermittent reinforcement are what makes the gambler keep throwing money into the machine and pulling the handle (old reference since they don't have handles anymore). If you win every time, even something small, you are less likely to keep putting your money in. So....you lose more often than you win, but when you do win the feeling is SO GOOD that it makes you keep going. Intermittent reinforcement is that small pot that keeps returning a bit of your money(a Legendary or Mystic cube). Random reinforcement is the larger pots that put you up on what you have invested (a useful Legendary or Unique)

    It is of course very intentional and unlikely to change, because it is the basis for ALL of these games. It's what keep you playing.
     
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  8. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Well said, unfortunately, you are probably right, but well said none the less.
     
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  9. GroovieGimp

    GroovieGimp Forum Apprentice

    Thank you all for your analysis and support. It is apparent that most feel as I do in this respect.

    However, with regards to the motivation prompting the random factor, I think the analogy would be more apt if it were carried out a bit further.

    Specifically, the handle or button aspect; in this case the button is stuck, and maintenance personnel must be called first to remove the gummed up mechanism, clean it out, re-lubricate, and finally reinstall the offending part. Unfortunately, that isn't the real problem, as condensation has invaded the switch, causing it to short out more often than not, and the result is that the button's reporting voltage's resistance keeps changing.

    Also, the payout mechanism is defunct in the sense that in all such chance operators, there is a break-even factor to encourage further betting, and this game doesn't have it. At all.

    I.e., perhaps it is time to replace the whole mechanism to find something better that works, rather than repeated, band-aid fixes.

    p.s., this time, make sure to remove the old code first, so as to ensure no artifact interference out of the gate.

    The wow factor is lost by the overwhelmiing wait that takes place before a true payout occurs.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2014
  10. Yeomanticore

    Yeomanticore Forum Greenhorn

  11. GroovieGimp

    GroovieGimp Forum Apprentice

    I think I'm done.

    I see no reason to continue.

    The administrators of this game think vices are virtues, and that chance is a better gaming tactic than effort. They are wrong, and way too defensive when confronted with this game's glaringly obvious shortcomings. The in-game pricing structure's are beyond expensive, and the simple fact is that utilizing luck as the primary means to evening the playing field only makes every player a loser. Additionally, as with all such games of chance, the odds hopelessly favor the house and are intentionally skewed against the player. In a word, fun-less.

    It's sad.

    This game has so much potential. The animations and graphics are quite pleasant. They truly could reach a huge audience if they would just change this one simple factor. Alas, they appear happy with their mediocracy, though, and building a true quality product is in direct conflict with their ideals.

    It's the equivalent of having a bugatti veyron with no engine sitting in the driveway; pretty, but purposeless.

    The rate of return on the investment of time spent is apocryphal. I would get a better payout investing in dirt. The whole mechanism runs as well as a car without tires. I believe excessively mashochistic, but ultimately futile, effort best describes my experience thus far with this endeavor.

    Please consider that while your target demographic may be children and the unemployed, those of us that work do not have even a smidgen of the time to build and maintain a viable character. Further, since we make the money, we decide where it is spent. Feeding money into a slot machine is irresponsible.

    It's been said you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. My version is more apt to this situation though.

    You can lead the ignorant to thought, but you can't make them think. Their attitude is serving as this game's entropy factor, not it's draw.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2014
  12. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    You are absolutely correct. For casinos it is the perfect solution to stay in business...

    In gaming developers know that the window closes fast and bringing in new players regularly to replace the frustrated keeps the game going..

    Some of the more established games now allow new players to "buy" their way up levels to compete. This is because they created the false logic that random small wins will keep players playing. Of course it works for a while, but the time frame is short in the long run.

    Instead of fixing the issue, developers simply create a new game and push all their latest resources into that one, then rinse and repeat as players get frustrated...

    If someone were to take the logical step and create a game where the rewards were more balanced, without being too easy (another game killer) the system may change...

    Today the gaming community is monkey see, monkey do... this is why all these games have the exact same complaints...
     
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  13. jthames

    jthames Advanced

    Some knowing and articulate responses to your post(s), and to which I could add next to nothing, but do want to say your aggravations/frustrations mirrors that of many in the DSO community. Hoping you stay with us.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2015
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  14. Perfect[IoN]1

    Perfect[IoN]1 Junior Expert

    good reward for killing boss's would be a XP chest or a fruit of insight that way the time wasted killing a boss is made up in xp when you need it, you do get some good items but from the Main large boss's i think XP is a nice reward and not unbalanced to players who cannot kill the truly nasty boss's (views are welcome on this)
     
  15. Mindship

    Mindship Forum Inhabitant

    From what I've read, there are more than 20 million Drakensang players worldwide. Until a substantial percentage of players organize and boycott the game (so BP feels it where it counts: in their bank accounts), genuine, player-oriented improvements to DSO will be few if at all (whilst subtractions from the game will continue). In the interim, the devs look at posts like these and grin, knowing such organization on so large a scale is as likely as winning the lottery. Their feeling is, if you don't like the game, don't play it. No one's forcing you, and we'll do just fine living off the millions who are playing (and paying).

    BTW, the correct behavioral psychology terms are variable-ratio and variable-interval reinforcement.
     
  16. BigPapa

    BigPapa Forum Overlooker

    Those are some of the modified terms adopted from Skinner's work. Happens all the time in the social sciences, some new doctor reads previous research and proposes a new experiment then refines the explanation and changes the terms so they can claim the work. The terms then, would rely on the reference you use. In any case, they identify the same principal. Maslow's hierarchy of needs is another example of modified expanded and "refined" work. Everyone and their grandmother uses his pyramid as a baseline to apply to their own thoughts.

    Your suggestion to "boycott" is also one that could cause the opposite result of what is desired. Boycotts work because the manufacturer's livelihood is on the line if the consumer doesn't get some desired modification from the company. BP would just as likely view the game as a passing trend common to the industry and move on to the next project resulting in the end of DSO.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
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  17. Mindship

    Mindship Forum Inhabitant

    It pretty much happens in all the sciences, not just psychology. In any event, variable-ratio and variable-interval are more operational (ie, more specific) in their definition. But yeah, you're right, a rose by any other name...

    "Passing trend" is what became of the game I was playing before DSO. Not that it was boycotted, per se, but because the devs stopped expanding the game, players left (I was one of the last diehards), and the game was soon after shut down.
     
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  18. Darwarren

    Darwarren Count Count

    Life in a Skinner box leads to psychotic behavior. I hope DSO realizes that. LOL.

    Maslow's heirarchy is a nice, neat package, but only monsters and war criminals would be sick enough to put it to a test, and prove its validity.

    The boycott thing is a rather overblown scheme without real-time economics, plausible mechanisms, or dynamic statistics to support it. DSO has a staff of about 50, and it's owned and fully controlled by BigPoint. It's position on the obsolescence time line is already well documented by the repeating technical problems, the most recent of which is the lack of support by Google Chrome.

    Much ado about nothing. Perfect for passing the time in forums.
     
  19. multitoonz

    multitoonz Forum Great Master

    Have to laugh at the recent comments. HAHAHAHAHAHA. There, it's out. Not sure how many old players are left in game, the Beta/Open Beta player base but if any of you are still here, do you remember the old forums and calls for boycotts everytime the game changed and it upset someone? So players would leave the game, BUT NOT THE FORUMS, which confused me btw, I mean if you're going to go, then go completely lol.
    Funny thing is the DSO player base has more than quadrupled since way back then so I guess the boycotts didn't work? Boycotts lol, haven't seen that in a while but I guess it was time for it to happen again.
     
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  20. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Boycott the R89 DK Nerf! LOL! Good times.

    Is that old enough to be "veteran?" What about when they introduced the Norslands?
     
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