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Confused about the paper of DK in end game

Discussion in 'Dragonknights' started by AlexDK, Sep 8, 2018.

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  1. AlexDK

    AlexDK Forum-Apprentice

    Hi,

    in this thread it's said more than once that after release 209 the 1H tank is useless.

    Assuming that affirmation is true, what is the current paper of lvl55 DK's in PW groups?

    The method of having a 1H tank spamming the agro skill, while the DPS classes kill the monsters/bosses/world bosses is no longer valid? Or the DK's are now doing that same thing, but using instead 2H with high dmg and MWS to survive, like it used to be before lvl50? Or maybe using 2H with high damage but playing solo for faster kill?

    Thank you.

    PS:
    About the thread that says that DK's are leechers:

    - When you hit lvl55 as a DK and go play PW, you need to be able to tank the map you're gonna play. There's no way to "pretend" that you're tanking. Therefore, the progression is slower, since you can't join a group to play infernal levels, and get higher tier items, if you're not able to tank those same infernal levels. The exception is if one have a guild or game friends that will carry them as a favor.

    - When you hit lvl55 as a ranged class and go play PW, you don't need to be strong enough to kill the monsters in the map you're gonna play. Because you can join/create a group with some strong players and play infernal levels, even if your gear is weak. Ranged classes can pretend to be strong (by using costumes to cover the gear, and by using cheap tier 1 sets). It's harder to detect that they are weak, and even when they are detected, that doesn't make the dungeon run impossible. The same is not true for a DK.

    Summing up: DK's cannot pretend that they are tanking, while ranged classes can pretend that they are doing damage, and therefore they can play infernal levels and get better gear much faster, and that's something very common to see. Considering this I think that calling DK's "leechers" is a bit unfair.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  2. Hetsunien

    Hetsunien Padavan

    1H DK is not useless at all. I think this misconception comes from R185 and forward, where you can have high damage with 2 handed weapons at the same time you have 80% armor and resistances with insane health points. So DKs build themselves to do tons of damage and still they can be capable of tanking pretty well.

    In the old days this wasn't possible, you had high defenses or high damage, but not both of them.
     
  3. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    Honestly with the increased def of mobs in inf 3 and soon inf 4 to come. I doont need a class that just gives 100% more hp to mobs and doesnt deal dmg. I have my own taunt if needed by mostly no, and you can kite the boss. So why make it harder for you by getting a useless 1h tank?
     
  4. AlexDK

    AlexDK Forum-Apprentice

    Thats's what I thought. I'm starting a new DK (I'm not lvl 55 yet), so was was wondering if something had changed drastically in the last few months that made the 1H DK useless.

    Having said that, what is the utility of a 2H DK? I guess that is not to play in groups, but mostly to play solo and PVP, is this correct?


    Unless something has changed a lot, the utility is to hold monsters agro so that the ranged classes can kill without being heavily chased by the mobs.
    Or is this changed, and now 1H tanks aren't needed?

    Still confused about the statement that 1H DK's aren't needed. What is the reason for that affirmation? It used to be essential to have a 1H tank in a group running the PW higher difficulties.
     
  5. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    mobs die easy even in inf 3 so mobs dont even get near you.
    Mages have agro if realllllllllly needed.
    Dwarfs have turrets that anihilte everything infrong of them.
    Ranger perma q7 the mobs to death

    Ye atleast for me and my groups tanks are useless even on bosses
    Utility of 2h DK is that hye can still agro ( pts banner of warf) and he can deal dmg at the same time so he is usefull a lot in fact
     
  6. silverseas

    silverseas Forum Commissioner

    If the only thing you care about when playing the game is minimizing time spent killing and resources spent, then yes, 1h DKs can seem like a burden. However, if you're here just to have fun - who cares? Half the DKs in my guild are perma 1h and the other half are perma 2h. I don't discriminate who I take along in my party and will help them build towards whatever they want, regardless.
     
    Hetsunien and silverward like this.
  7. AlexDK

    AlexDK Forum-Apprentice

    But imagine a run in INF 1, 2 or 3, where the the DK is 2H.
    - Can that DK tank and hold monsters agro? Because if it cannot tank and hold agro, the group would do better with a class that can make more damage than a DK, right?
     
  8. silverseas

    silverseas Forum Commissioner

    Again, like I said: Are you here to play the game to have fun or to be efficient? I'm here to have fun. I always ask a DK joining my group if they are able to tank at x difficulty we are playing that day. If the answer is no, I will put the taunt onto my Guardian and/or Mind Control. If they say yes, I will respect their ability to tank and remove the taunts off my own skills. It does not matter to me if we are 30 seconds faster or slower because I have a 1h/2h [whatever class here]. I don't add people to my group because they belong to a specific class or wield a specific weapon. I add them if I know who they are and/or I'm farming something I don't mind random people joining.

    Now on the other hand, if I happen to know they play like trash (ie. dying all over the place, not waiting for their teammates to arrive before they claim buffs and whatnot), I don't care if they have god-mode. I won't add them to my party because that's going to be a miserable party, not a fun one.
     
    Hiro73, _Baragain_ and Hetsunien like this.
  9. AlexDK

    AlexDK Forum-Apprentice

    Oh ok, those skills that allow SW to taunt are new to me (the guardian shouldn't be very useful because he normally dies very fast - unless that has changed too- but the mind control one seems useful).

    If the other the classes now have skills that allow them to taunt the mobs and bosses well enough, probably the DK is now less useful. I don't know, I guess I'll have to wait to see.

    I understand what you mean, and I think you have a good attitude, but i'm convinced that most people don't have fun when they know that they are wasting resources that take time/money/effort to gather.... very especially when playing higher difficulties on PW's.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  10. Hetsunien

    Hetsunien Padavan

    Then those people should play alone, so no one would mess their farming.
     
  11. cdeepal

    cdeepal Forum Baron

    Ignore some of the strong players who come here and complain DK are useless. They are too strong where they can solo Infernal 3. Obviously they don't need DKs. Just ignore them.

    Most players in the game still need DKs to tank, and DKs are still the best tanks in the game. When You have a good DK who is capable of taking all hits from a boss, You can kill efficiently without wasting any time and also without any deaths.

    It is totally unfair to say DKs are leechers. It is actually the other way around. No one invites a weak DK to a party, and they cannot stay in the party for long if they are weak. But every other class joins parties where they cannot perform and they are the leechers.
     
  12. Marcelosmbr

    Marcelosmbr Forum-Greenhorn

    Nowadays it does not take much time or effort, to be able to face bigger difficulties.
    And probably if you have good damage to go into bigger difficulties, like INF3 and INF4, most likely with other people of similar damage, the tank will be unnecessary.
    I see dozens of groups daily, only with mages, rangers, and mechanics. That should not even be a possibility.
    Therefore it is a tendency for the tank to become increasingly useless in the game.
    The question is not "suits the game, play with two hands", but "this is a mistake, let's rethink the capabilities of the classes?"
    The fact that this doubt about the role of DK arises among several people is already strong evidence that something is wrong, do not you think?


    I had thought, in organizing the skillls differently, make them work with profit and loss. Something like "per point applied here, you will gain x% damage, and you will lose y% defense" Doing this way, gaining on one side something, and losing something on the other, nor would it be necessary to reformulate values of items, which would be more hard to do.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
  13. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    No. Just "No." Please stop talking right now before you give the developers any horrible ideas.

    All that would do is destroy a DK's ability to solo while the other classes that can rely on a more evasion driven build would be largely unaffected.

    I'm a very antisocial player in game, grouping only when necessary or convenient. Any sort of recommendation that would make solo play unfeasible is by definition a horrible idea that needs to be squashed immediately. I'm fine with the group buffs system to encourage grouping, but threatening my solo play is a guaranteed way to get me riled up.
     
    TwiliShadow likes this.
  14. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Duke

    I fully agree, I have taken him on regarding this before and it seems he cannot tank higher than infernal1 in a group
    He looks at this as justification for wanting a whole class nerfed instead of opting to learn to craft.
    (Possibly also reluctant to farm to attain better gems.)

    In any case, to be honest making a tank is a useless exercize in my opinion.
    The reason is that the player that opts to make a tank does not take farm time into consideration.
    Not just for other classes but for himself too.
    Any wise player would make a damage build first then a tank, the reason is they can farm gems and glyphs faster and then can build a tank.
    A player being a tank only makes them rather dependant on other players, and if they are a bad or weak tank they will be rejected hard.
    I personally am a horrible tank.
    With my current build methodology I have very very good damage and can heal my group members too.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
  15. Marcelosmbr

    Marcelosmbr Forum-Greenhorn

    Baragain)

    The introverted personality you have is by no means a considerable argument here, much less one that makes my idea "awful." Are you playing a mmorpg, and refusing ideas that make the game more cooperative, what's the logic of it? Sorry, but we have nothing to do with this.
    And this idea does not necessarily lead to the impossibility of soloing in general, but it would lead to the impossibility of being able to farm alone in the biggest difficulties of the game.
    Not only that, that way, with this point application logic, which I proposed, it would not be necessary to continue with the current PvP system (in which all are identical now), it would of course be more balanced.
    In fact, I did not invent this point tree logic, it already exists in other games EDIT

    You are simply averse to this idea because the current system benefits your build and personal way of playing. If something were changed, you would be harmed in a way, that's it, it's much more personal reasons than coherent arguments.

    Phryx)

    "I have taken him on regarding this before and it seems he cannot tank higher than infernal1 in a group"
    Are you referring to me? I tank all the difficulties, my argument did not arise because I have difficulties in the game :/

    "He looks at this as justification for wanting a whole class nerfed instead of opting to learn to craft."


    It just shows that you can not understand what I'm talking about here. I'm saying that the game is wrong, and you're arguing that I have this idea because "I do not know how to play"
    I'm saying "it's wrong", you're saying "adapt to error".
    I say, that is wrong for N reasons, you say "is that you need to craft"

    Imagine we are in a time when what attracts attention from enemies, was the greatest damage done. Now imagine me saying "this is wrong, the DK should already attract the enemies"
    You would say "you have to craft, and get greater damage to attract enemies like DK, learn to play" :rolleyes:


    It's like I said "I do not like the insecurity of this country, let's do something about it?"
    And you said "learn to nail doors and windows" kakakaka
     
    Last edited by moderator: Jan 30, 2019
  16. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    This game has both single player and multiplayer elements. This is made clear by the fact that there are both solo leaderboard and group leaderboards. Therefore, both solo and multiple play styles for all the classes need to be viable or a class is not balanced.

    I my have my preferred play style, but your idea is objectively awful because it adversely impacts a DK's ability to farm solo more so than it would impact a SW, SM, or RA's ability to solo. Taking away defensive capability from a DPS SW, SM, or RA only makes it a little more difficult to farm in a DPS build because ranged classes focus on a play style that involves hitting the enemy without taking a hit. The hits would simply become more consequential. But for a DK, the one and only true melee class in the game, each hit getting magnified becomes game breaking. A DK needs to be able to take hits to be able to farm solo and your awful idea would make that farming significantly more difficult than it would make it for the ranged classes... unless you think that solo farming in a tank build is the way to go.

    Reminds me of the thread about the mods filtering ideas and a comment from Dragonnns there:
    Yea, right... that is why I said:
    There is a big difference between trying to get people to play together and discouraging solo play for a single class. Go learn to play the game and learn to think about second and third order effects of bad ideas.
     
  17. Marcelosmbr

    Marcelosmbr Forum-Greenhorn

    In other games, where this same system is applied, there is the possibility of playing solo, I put the logic here superficially, to get an idea, you are making things extreme. I'm not excluding the possibility of playing alone. Tell me in which mmorpg, can a magician have the same physical defense as a warrior? Or rather tell me what logic this has, can you? For all classes is the same tree of knowledge, for all classes are the same values in the items, and this could not be so. In order to have high defense, the damage obviously must be sacrificed, in order to have high damage, the defense obviously must be sacrificed, lol how can one disagree with this? If you are a magician, you are naturally fragile, or if you are any class whose goal is not to receive damage. Are you a DK who uses two hands? Cool, can have regenerative abilities, have good damage, and? Same logic as damage-focused classes, you'll never have defense capabilities comparable to ordinary tank. Does this make Farm Solo impossible? No man, this is not only logical, it's just an incentive for cooperation.
    The demand for tank is falling among the groups, of course this is a mistake, what is the cause?

    One way to solve this, in a quick way, would be to actually remove the possibility of passing spells to unique items.
    But no one agrees with that either.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  18. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    I don't have the defensive ability of a tank... do you see a shield somewhere effectively doubling my effective HP? Do you see HP numbers into the 300k+ range so that I can heal for 6k a second from Outburst while also holding agro? Do you see a belt with resistance enchantment, or a torso with armor enchantments to enhance my bulk? Do you see me wasting lines on amulets, rings, helmets, or gloves to improve my defenses at the expense of my offensive stats? Let me sum it up for you.

    Amulet: Pure Crit Damage... Not HP
    Belt: Pure Damage.... Not Resistance
    Rings: Pure Crit Damage.... Not HP
    Helmet: Pure Damage... Not HP
    Shoulders: Uncrafted in favor of damage... Not HP
    Torso: Pure Damage... Not Armor
    Gloves: Pure Speed... Not HP


    The point is, I DO sacrifice defense for damage. I sacrifice it in almost every item I craft... and you would have me sacrifice even more based on what wisdom skills I select? And you think that is a fair/good idea? Don't make me laugh! I'm sure that on the other side of your coin, you'd say that if you select tank skills instead of DPS skills, then it should drop your offense numbers... Sure, why not? It's not like that hurts a tank who wasn't planning on contributing a significant amount of damage to begin with. See it yet? It wouldn't hurt tanks much. It wouldn't hurt DPS SWs, SMs, and RAs (especially if they play with a tank), but 2H DKs would be destroyed... Yet you are blind enough to think this is a good idea.

    What little bulk a 2H DK has is simply to survive incoming hits enough to last long enough to heal. For a 2H DK, not taking hits isn't an option. But top end ranged classes take a small fraction of the hits that a DK will take because the ranged style caters to that. They don't need to be as bulky (and they aren't) because the goal is for them not to take a hit to begin with.


    Your argument is obviously from the perspective of someone who has never set foot in end game content as a solo DK. To me, that means that you don't have the necessary experience to speak intelligently on this topic. Build a 2H DK capable of even doing Infernal II solo (easier than ever with the changes in R214) and come back after you have a couple months of playing Infernal II as a solo 2H DK and maybe you'll be able to impress me with your newfound wisdom.

    As I said in the other thread:
     
    Phyrix likes this.
  19. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    Not taking a side only jsut gonna mention that one of the players i play with and speak almsot every day made a tank/2h build staying with 220k hp and tanking inf 4 while agroing , its possible but hard to pull off
     
  20. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Was he running a HP Buff? Because I can get up to about 200k with the 20k and 24% buffs and the group buffs.
     

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