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Development Team Letter - CLASS BALANCING

Discussion in 'Headquarters Archive' started by DSO Production Team, Nov 1, 2017.

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  1. Mesala

    Mesala Advanced

    I rolled out a 12k 1-hand with 80% armor, 80% block, 75% block strength and 70% res, HP was 120k a few days ago.
    This setup is NOT based on the CUBE set.

    Observations:

    I can get killed when they gang up on me with stuns. I can get killed with an armor break if not careful.
    This should be the most OP build available in Drakensang up to date, but its not.

    Battling with 1-hand mages ends badly for them. Ranger is well balanced against such a tank if its an OP build.
    I don't know if an 1-hand OP dwarf exsist inside the game, I haven't seen it on Grimmag so I can't comment on that.

    Battling similar tank build like mine is also OK.

    I am doing with 33k armor so armor break on me in most cases works so so. If you build a 40k armor tank then all of your breaks most of the time won't work at all.

    Now we come to the real problem, and its called the Agathon set from the CUBE.
    I have completed 95% of that build and I rolled that one out too for testing.

    The result was a 165k tank, and then you gain immortality in 99,99%, that 0.01% is just pure luck that got you killed.
    The problem is in 50% HP bonus when you equip all 5 items. Its just way too OP and whats worse, that set is easily obtained by cubes.

    I don't even have all gems maxed out. Imagine the build with further modifications on gems and fine tuning, it would be a 180k HP tank with ease. Even if you can do that kind of a damage to a tank, you will get owned by the regeneration skill easily.

    As for the balancing, CUBE set 50% bonus on HP should be reduced drastically if not deleted, because its ridicolous that small time farming can get you an OP set like that in no time.

    Mages should be carefully examined and improved (1-hand), rangers can remain the same, dwarfs I don't know.

    I have battled 1-hand cube cheats (as I call them) and there is no way I can kill off a tank like that, their regeneration is through the roof, and the game goes into overtime and I get killed of by a stopwatch.

    If someone has a problem with the normal regenaration on a 120-130k tank, then I would support the idea of reducing that rate by lets say 20%.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
    EhtovK, ULTRAPEINLICH and semen470 like this.
  2. ULTRAPEINLICH

    ULTRAPEINLICH Forum Duke

    The icying on the cake is the fact that a 1h dk using cube weapon combined with good cooldown runes in his amulet can reduce the cooldown on war cry down to 6s (for a 5sec buff duration), thus obtaining almost perma 40%run speed, full rage and stunbreak. You cannot run away from a dk like that.

    @Phyrix i have not built a full cube pvp set no, i lack the amount of solid cores needed. I wont build a cube setup, i dont like the bow and id prefer either my current emilia build or a full conc cost reduction build, which both require my heredur shield with old stats.
     
    Demon likes this.
  3. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    Dwarfs in PvP are so non existent that the only comment it could be done about them is "I don't know" :p:p
     
  4. KanKomar

    KanKomar Forum-Apprentice

    And what about 2h dk in arena, easy targets, few skills to attack if they survive while they are approaching opponent, and only few chances to hit (if that opponent survives that few hits, dk is dead for sure bcs he don't get new chance to hit again). Is there any future for 2h dragonknights in arena battles or they will stay cannon fodder?
     
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  5. -HARRA81-

    -HARRA81- Forum Mogul

    I think you are trying to reach the moon in the sky. What do you think? Add 80% block and of course some reduction for 2-h DK ?
    If you want to 1-2hit people then prepare to get 1-2 hitted. If you don't like it, take shield and that's it.
     
    EhtovK likes this.
  6. KanKomar

    KanKomar Forum-Apprentice

    No I don't want to be god in arena, immortal, just want same chances to participate in fight as for example 2h mage. When I'm fighting against 2h mage, its same as I'm attacking mg bunker with knife only, that is obviously disbalance, and this thread is about balancing classes, so I just want to hear is there any solution for that kind of unfair fight. And about that I should take shield, ok, it's some kind of solution, but unacceptable for me, I just don't like to play like that. So if it is only solution, just good to know.
     
  7. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    The issue is that with the current attack speed and the fact that DKs need to generate rage and close the distance, 2H DKS are at a distinct disadvantage in most modes of PvP. Eventually I will build a 1H build so that the ranged classes can curse at me in PvP, but balance should mean that all classes and builds have balance.
     
  8. fab

    fab Advanced

    Since 4-5 years back dks already been OP till now and I don't know what are they ranting except knowing how to play a OP class in arena, killing every players in sight. With Hp re gen skill is simply just outrageously OP, all they rant is they need rage to use skill.
    Have you guys ever seen a dk which cant catch up his opponent in arena and just 1-2 smash skill kills instantly almost while it take more than 10 fireballs to deplete a dk hp by half.
    Obviously sw class is just simply cannot be continued on further anymore, it should be deleted or replaced another class in order to par with other classes
     
  9. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    After three months, I'd hoped you'd finally left for good, but I guess I must be crazy.

    What you say about a DK's defenses is only true of 1H DKs. And what you say about offense is mostly true of 2H DKs... for the most part, it is a case of "either/or".

    And, as I always say when you start crying, why the hell are you still playing a SW if they are so disadvantaged. If the problem has been this bad for 4-5 years, then you are either an idiot or a fool to have not switched classes before now.

    Is today the day when everyone's favorite SW crybaby finally makes a DK and learns for himself?
     
    EhtovK, Dragonnns and bLaind like this.
  10. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    I don't want to defend him, but your comments are a little bit off)

    1. switching is a hard move. you need to abandon, in my case 40-40-30-30-30 armor runes, for instance. all others being top notch too. it's just hard to accept it. it will take roughly 3 years to get there. and then, you will end up with 9% slower boots, and some other items. so this suggestion is not conclusive.
    2. I do not agree with the build separation. 2h and 1h is still the same character with the same runes, glyphs, gems etc. if one of the builds of your class is bad, you have an options. if you whole class is a joke, you don't. switching build is a matter of crafting that takes few months. switching class takes 3 years, and who knows if you can make it.
    3. I disagree that any 2h build of any class should be viable in PVP. 1h should have the edge as they always did. unless for the mass murder type of events like 5v5. and I've seen pretty solid 2h builds, with a little shift to survival that can offer a lot. but again, I want a game in which 1h char of any class should be able to defeat 2h char of any class.
    4. offense and defense go together. you can have all offense in the world with glass canon, but you die in a fraction of second making all that offense useless. DK do have the best balance of two, hope you agree.

    anyhow, just wanted to throw a perspective.
     
  11. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    If he'd made the switch, or at least started a DK 4+ years ago, this becomes a non issue. Additionally, until the release of LVL55, Sea were still the top class in PVP and the second best DPS class. So his crying back then made even less sense back then than it does now, but that didn't stop him from spouting his nonsense then.

    Your other points have validity, and I'd likely be more sympathetic towards him if he actually contributed to the community in any other way than rants that ignore reason, logic, math, etc. Instead, he is a negative presence that has no redeeming contributions on the forum. You hold similar opinions, but you positively contribute to the community on a regulat basis and know how to say things other than "SWs are weak, buff us and nerf DKs." All of this means I actually respect you and your opinion whereas Fab and guys like him are nothing more than a joke to me.
     
  12. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    So how exactly would forcing everyone to build a 1h bring balance to the game?

    If 2 hand characters could never win, would that not lead to even more complaining and constant nerf talk?

    Shouldn't pvp be based at least a little tiny bit on skill?

    I'm all for buffing mages. I also think that 1h set ups could use a significant boost to encourage players to want to build one. I remember when they ruled pvp. I do not think that they should be able to beat every 2h just because. That defeats the purpose of balance.

    If the idea is honestly about creating balance, anyone should be able to build the type and style of character that they want and be competitive. That would be balanced.
     
  13. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    I just don't understand why should defenseless 2h build be on par with a well balanced chars. sure glass canons could win sometime thanks to a burst, but they shouldn't rule it all. it makes no sense to me.
    Secondly, I do not see how having all classes being on par with their balanced 1h builds create any imbalance. I do not consider 2h build another character or class. put in simple math, character power is it's survivability multiplied by offense. so the maximization of this function defines what is the 'best' balance. e.g, you have 10 points to distribute between defense and offense. you can put all on def, or 50-50.
    with 50-50 you get 5*5=25.
    with 20-80 you get 2*8=16.

    my point is that 50-50 should be better that 20-80. and 20-80 is 2h build no matter how you slice it, while 50-50 is 1h build. well, this is what it should be, imo.

    now, back to reality. mages are perfectly balanced inbetween. so mage with 50-50 builds would usually have more chances comparing to 30-70 if we run 1000 similations. it's not the case with DK, because they have another moving piece - healing.

    DK with 50-50 isn't the best option, because the first 50 being def, is also being multiplied by healing. so the DK balance, mathematically speaking is shifted towards defense. tripling the HP over the course of a match makes 70-30 the best, or so. and now the opposite with 2h. 30-70 2h build loses because they don't get that another dimension of healing. with healing in place, this math is unsolvable.

    I personally think the resolution is somewhere around tripling (whatever) DK hp to compensate for distance, while removing all or most of the passive healing, in PVP at least.
     
  14. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    You are overreacting ... let him say whatever he wants. It is a free world and everyone has a right to say what is on his/her mind. :p
    Whether we can take someone's opinion seriously or not ... that is whole another topic.
    No one has ever forced anyone to use 1H build in arena in the past ... quite contrary players are being forced to use 2H builds ATM.
    The thing is ... all 2H sets are broken for all classes ... they are one of the main game breakers since Qaizah expansion. I don't know if coincidence or not but all classes turned into suicide bombers ever since.
    That was not the case in the past when the game was pretty well balanced. Everyone knew the risk of choosing such gear and what were the benefits vs. loses. Nowadays there are almost no loses at all with such builds/items. We don't even have a variety of both 2H and 1h items ... especially 1h items. The devs "reworked" most of the existing items into a joke and in same time they created new useless items that not even newbies are using. That is the polite way of forcing someone into using one particular build/item ... make the others useless and everyone will use the one that is OP and broken. The same way the shepherds are tending a sheep flock.
     
  15. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    It reminds me of a US politician who was talking to a bunch of German students saying “In America, you have a right to be stupid, if you want to be.”

    EDIT
     
    Last edited by moderator: Mar 22, 2018
  16. Rhysingstar

    Rhysingstar Forum Ambassador

    I completely agree. That is why I said;

    We should be able to build what we like, whether that is 1h or 2h and be competitive. We should be able to play any class and be competitive.

    No class or build should stand out above another. That is what balance means to me.
     
    EhtovK and MikeyMetro like this.
  17. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    So, you want 2h DK have 50-50 chances against 1h DK?) God bless ya)
     
  18. Dragonnns

    Dragonnns Board Veteran

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that is the point Rhysingstar is making. That the advantages of a 1 handed DK balance against the advantages of a 2 handed DK, or a 2 handed SM, or a 1 handed RA, etc. And when paired with a similarly leveled opponent, that skill takes over in the battle.
     
  19. fab

    fab Advanced

    EDIT Mr horrible, you cannot accept the facts that dks is OP whether in defensive ( 1H build ) or in offensive build ( 2H ) whether in gears is also much more superior than other class.
    What you know is defend your own class ( DK using 2H build ) pve, they deal more damage while standing in boss runs.
    In pvp they use 1H build for much blocks and healing which made the toon even more OP, skills like dragon hide toughens toon like PW bosses which makes other toons skills absolutely useless to dks. ( which makes the toon even more OP than ever ).
    Why healing when they already got so much hp than other classes and still allow to heal.
    Thirdly I didn't say dks should be nerf so don't put words into players mouth, players which using a dks rant and you immediately defend them, when rangers or sw complain about their class EDIT
    If dks isn't op, then use you sw ( doctorofdeath ) and prove to us that WE sw players is a nothing but noobs in pvp against dk in 1H build.
    Prove to us you are a better gamer not just by saying.
    They gave sw a new skill ( icesphere ) BUT need to close in to do some serious damage and they are not even a melee class, fireballs is good for range attacks BUT 126% is just way too low.
    Icesphere should travel like rangers EA and should explode when makes contact
     
    Last edited by moderator: Mar 22, 2018
  20. sargon234

    sargon234 Forum Ambassador

    you're doing more damage to your cause of buffing mages than any of your opponents
     
    Last edited by moderator: Mar 22, 2018
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