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Development Team Letter - CLASS BALANCING

Discussion in 'Headquarters Archive' started by DSO Production Team, Nov 1, 2017.

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  1. Phyrix

    Phyrix Old Hand

    Personally I think dks is the only class that doesnt moan and not why but because through 55 levels they did not have it easy without my deluxe I have no idea how anyone can make it running higher levels I die die and die again.
    It literally takes years to become OP its not just oh I ran pw for 2 months and now I am OP
    Some classes can become OP in a mere 3 months
    But you want a OP Mage that can compete with dks probably kill me even though I have been at lvl55 for nearly a year I saw a post on dso world today and wow just wow
    His PVP build
    [​IMG]

    One of his farming builds, he has one for bosses too
    [​IMG]

    I meet this guy in pvp I am dead as f
     
  2. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master


    The reason why they dont moan is because they have it all right now (like always..cuz lets face it, since the beginning of times, DSO favorised DKs)....Do you really believe that if DK were weak af, they would simply stand by and accept that like the mages or dwarfs do nowadays? DKs own pvp and pve nowadays...why would they moan about it? A endgame DK would kick your butt in pve and pvp from dracania to kingdom come even if u are a high end RA,SW or SM.


    Yes there are a few people here who consider other classes to be more op than DK but they cant provide proofs of other classes doing 20-30 sec boss kills (like DKs do)...nor show pvp matches vs endgame DKs with 1hand where they literally own the match and kick the crap out of that DK.Yet, they come with silly arguments like SWs having more skill dmg, and despite that they cant beat a DK in pve nor pvp....But yes, Dks are weak, every other class is OP...


    Also if you are being killed by a mage like the one you showed in the pics above, then u are far from being a high end DK.A mage like that dies in 1 -2 EA from a ranger, and max 3-5 hits from a dk.If that mage would be to kill a 1hand high end dk with those stats he will need to hit that dk more than 15-20 times to kill him with fireballs.You get 3 fireballs per mana bar...3x126% dmg...not even similar dmg to 1 EA ...So 20 -30 hits + for a 1hand end game mage to kill a 1hand end game dk(if the dk stands still and only heal that is lol...if dk attacks its impossible to kill with a 1hand mage) and 3-4 hits for a 1hand endgame dk to kill 1hand endgame mage...#balance

    There are top rangers here, like wigger for instance, who prove that it is impossible to kill a high end dk even for him and his 500% dmg ea and u tell me that a mage with 126% dmg fireball is op?
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
    GoulishNightmares likes this.
  3. Phyrix

    Phyrix Old Hand

    You know the first 55 levels of the game a DK has to physically walk to every single little monster and kill them
    Especially noobs like I was and they literally have a 1h weapon because they think they need it to be able to defend themselves while amassing a huge amount of monsters.

    While a certain someone whom I used to play with and still do at times ( they play much less ) they literally melted all foes with chain lightning.


    Now as for wigger he has invested a lot of time in the set he has, even though he has been asked why he has not opted for the cube set completely.

    The mage up above said crafting is too much of a pain but they would go for the said cube set if they had placeholders for it.

    Now in the said mages' case his hp would be about 150k

    Is that not a lot?

    look at his armor and blockrate too

    Yes he cannot heal but he can teleport has a minion and can do killer beams

    Now for a dk to get to him he has to get past all that and then deal damage to 75% block and 75% armor
    Yeah sure maybe I need a few more years but if I get nerfed after spending years building I woulkd want my money back or quit the game for good
     
  4. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master


    So what about the high end mages and dwarfs who are crap in pvp vs 1hand warriors? Where should we submit our requests to get our money back? Apparently all the money that we spent was for nothing since we cant beat a warrior with similar gems/runes/craftings in pve or pvp.

    When you create a mage it says "Strenghts: Mighty magical powers"...then blabla bla bla..."casting out opressive magic power"...Where are these "mighty" magical powers? All i see are normal skills or weak skills that cant match other classes and nothing mighty.

    He also said this because he realised that it is useless to spend so many resources to craft something that will turn out to be useless in the end.You cant possibly expect to kill a top warrior when u have 15k dmg and 126% skill dmg on fireballs...you cant kill or barely kill it with 2hand and double that dmg and u wanna do it with half that? Rangers complain that they cant do it with EA and that skill has way more skill dmg than fireball....enough said

    Maybe that mage realised this before he wasted a lot of time and resources for creating those items xD
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  5. It does not take a mage three months to become OP. You exaggerate. Also that mage stats you posted, what essense does he have on? You forgot to show that. I believe he is probably strong but I can almost guarantee it took him a while to build up his toon to that status, just as any class. As for his defenses, they can be avoided. Mages have cooldown like any other class, so you wait for them to strike, then cooldown takes affect, dodge and attack. I would love to see you with him in PVP :D Be awesome.
     
  6. Phyrix

    Phyrix Old Hand


    You know for people whom have been playing this game for years it sure does kick me that none of you guys figure the hp from gems might be an issue
    But nooo nerf nerf nerf

    You just mentioned the 2 classes with the lowest hp gems
    [​IMG]
    Also you forget CD aka critical damage and 50% more hp from the whole cube set.

    PS all I read from you is damage damage damage.

    Normal skills like you having to walk over to an opponent and bash him?
    Oh wait how many times do you actually stand in the middle of a bunch of melee opponents holding them of seeing your hp drop?
    or having to deal with that while there's a bunch of skele archers whipping your behind?

    Gee fun times I tell you
    How about take all ranged skills from sw and embue their wands and staves and then they have to melee.

    Tell me fugnuts exactly what is your cd and your critical hitrate? you ever bothered trying to spam a dk with CL and then initiate higher damage skills or do you just want fast kills?
    Dont you have a beam with 600% increased damage?
    Why not just ask bp to make that skill twice as fast and the cooldown 25% better?
     
  7. Phyrix

    Phyrix Old Hand

    Uhm as much of a noob I am it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see the pvp stats is taken in a 5v5 arena
    But no worries I will not dare call you a noob xD
     
  8. DBS-Flamelurker

    DBS-Flamelurker Junior Expert

    DK is profoundly different from other classes, for two simple reasons:

    1: MUST go into melee, compared to any other class.

    2: Recover "mana" when he takes damage, he loses it when he is not hit.

    In conclusion, to work, the war must have skills that allow it to take damage without dying.
    Against a Boss, the war is faced with two situations:

    1: Can you recover the life you lose? You can kill Boss, better than other classes.

    2: No? You have no hope, compared to other classes.

    Other classes can take advantage of the distance factor, the slowness of the Boss, respect war.
    And this is the ADVANTAGE of the other classes: the possibility of gaining advantage from the distance. With other characters I can kill a boss without take damage, with war I can't. But, the moment the characters get stronger than the difficulty they face, war is better. Why? Because a few times you need to dodge.
    If healing is removed, dk does not work. First because it is a melee character, second, if forced to dodge, will never have "mana" to attack. One way to make war more like other characters is to make his anger similar to other characters. The war will lose constant damage, and can dodge and gain an advantage.
    But as long as anger works like that, and war will be a melee character, the character will have to be very strong to work.
    War has healing; the other characters range. If you want to remove healing, you must give the war a range or take it away from the other characters. It is not difficult to understand ^^

    Anyone who claimed that war would be like the other classes in pve without healing, has limited gaming knowledge.

    And now let's move on to the pvp:
    Ranger can reach the same war statistics. That's all.
    War, in a fight, hits 30% of the time, the other classes 70%. The war, not having better statistics (already shown) WITHOUT HEALING would be weak.
    As long as a Ranger can do crazy damage with EA, nothing can be said about healing. Because healing is a wrong tool as well as EA, in pvp.
     
  9. ULTRAPEINLICH

    ULTRAPEINLICH Forum Duke

    Because I dont like the bow and because my setup is better than any cube setup, at least against DKs. Rest assured that there is no other ranger or lets say no cubeset ranger, that can pump out as much dmg as I do vs dk / be as dangerous as I am for dks. And that was the main goal of my build. The goal of my build was to be anti-dh, because other rangers/mages/dwarfs are far away from being as strong as 1h dks as an enemy in 1v1 and 3v3.

    your numbers are wrong. He would reach around 120-125k.
    But I can tell you that any highend 1h dk will laugh about the dmg he deals with 14k base dmg EVEN with pvp tree buff.
    No offense to that mage, but his build is what I call a "farm imbalanced 2h players in 5v5/6v6"-build. Good to kill 2h players, but wont stand any chance vs balanced dks and rangers. With that low amount of armor, he'll be 2-3 shotted by rangers and dks with armor break attacks.

    The fact what you and many other low to middle elo pvp players (not meant to be mean, it just means you dont play in highend pvp) don't understand, is that a dk is allowed to make mistakes, thanks to healing.

    Let me give you this scenario:
    I could push my Ranger to 120k hp even without cube set but in trade off dmg, like the mage in your example above did.
    Let's say I will now hit my enemy dk for 12-15k dmg with blocked EAs. The highend dk will have 75-80% armor after armor break, so you dont benefit from any armor break EAs, just from the 2x 250% dmg dealt.
    While the dk can take a few hits, make mistakes, even take intended hits to get near / rage, he will eventually reach the opponent with angry strike / jump / stun charge and thus deal 10-20k dmg, depending on the skill that hits.
    Even with 120k hp, this means 1/10 or even 1/6 of my full hp is gone forever (half the hp if unblocked). I made a mistake and i will suffer from it forever. However, the dk is able to recover from the 15k dmg hit taken in 5seconds. And that is why you cannot compete vs a cube set dk anymore once he has reached a certain point of build strength. The off/def ratio a dk can reach with that set, combined with massive healing and a heavily reduced war cry that allows you to have a well filled rage pool as well as 40%run speed for 5 seconds is just unbeatable.
    Dont act silly. Mages ask for destruction improvement since lvl 45.

    That is a wrong assumption. I play my ranger as full melee character with my blade dance build. I dont have any healing (wolves/trees cannot count as healing in inf3 as every ranger will tell you) and yet I can farm PWs fine as melee character without any healing. And I can kill any boss without taking damage as full melee char, if you cannot, this is your problem, not a DK's problem.

    Wrong.
    Facts are:
    The DK has always been the class that can reach the highest def/off ratio. Combined with healing, he gets unbeatable for any other class but dk. This has been the case in lvl 40, 45, 50 and 55. At lvl50 rangers could come close or even similar to dk. Do you know why? Because it was possible to use 2x rings of life, which gave you as much healing as a dk would have.
     
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  10. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master

    You serious right now? Do you really believe that the problem is the +70 extra hp on the amethysts and not the hp reg giving you more hp back than the dmg you take?

    Ofc it is.You dont have enough of it as a SW if u play with 1hand vs a warrior.Its either the dmg or skill dmg that has to be improved for SWs if the warrior's hp regenerations wont be rebalanced.Read through the last pages of this thread where others explained why SWs are crap vs 1hand warriors, especially the ones with lifekeeper and cube set.

    What you fail to understand is that if you are a end game warrior, with latest gear (runes, gems, crafts, glyphs) you wont have to dodge anything except maybe EAs.You can attack continuously while spamming the heal skill every 5 sec and not be bottered if your opponent hits you or not because it wont make much of a difference.

    In pvp i have of course 80% crit value with both 1hand and 2hand (who doesnt nowadays), 400% crit dmg if i were to play with 1hand , and 351% -370% with 2hand depends how many items from the cube set i use.

    Im not sure if you are trolling me when u asked me if i tried to spam a dk with chain lightning or if u are serious.Have you seen any sane mages who would use such a skill in pvp nowadays? Do you know that if you were to spam chain lightning u will have to attack with lightning strike afterwards in order to actually make some serious dmg to him and that skill is useless as hell since you cant hit much with it.Spammin chain lightning was ok at lvl 45 and a lot of mages liked that but in pvp now, that skill is useless as hell.Besides spaming vs endgame warriors will only make them get an increased boost from spider set or u will heal them more than dmg them...either way it wont end good for the one who does the spamming xD

    Regarding that "beam" that does 600% dmg, yes mages have such a skill and it does 750% actually if u spend some points on it but the animation takes too long and u have to be really lucky to hit something with it...+ that it has a long CD.It would be a good idea to make the skill faster and add a reduced cd to it though.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
    GoulishNightmares likes this.
  11. Phyrix

    Phyrix Old Hand

    Are you serious?

    Do you think dks naturally have infinite hp?
    No its the gems and increased hp%

    Look I have only been level 55 for 8 months I cannot kill 5 opponents on inf3 without dying

    Maybe I suck maybe not who knows I use greens though
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  12. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master

    If you regenerate more hp than the dmg you take it as if having infinite hp.Take a warrior friend, ask him to go kingshill, u remove all of your items and attack him and ask him to heal only...You can do this for a few months in a row..you would be dealing infinite dmg to him during those months of attacking so in a way it is as if he has infinite hp.Same thing is happening in PvP now, one heals more than the other hits leading to the same result.

    Once you heal more than the dmg you take you can easily kill your opponent even if u have 2-3k dmg..your oponent is not able to heal at all (rangers/mages) so it will be just a mater of time until u win.
     
  13. DBS-Flamelurker

    DBS-Flamelurker Junior Expert

    Remove dance immunity, then talk about it... :D with special bow can do absurd damage. Without cooldown and very low costs. ;)

    Melee involves not using EA, do you use it? I try to guess: yes.

    Dance of Lame is an evasive attack, like Assault of war. But Assault, in pve, is good only to dodge (time immunity is small compared Dance) or stun.

    Also, you're forgetting an important factor: DK is not rewarded for dodging, but taking damage. This is a GREAT DIFFERENCE.
    You do not need to heal because the dance of blades makes you immune, I use it with great satisfaction. And it shows how powerful Ranger is, instead.

    About pvp: I never said that war is not strong in pvp. What I said is: without healing, war loses against Ranger in pvp.

    I'll explain it in a simple way:
    War 1h with healing vs other classes: war advantage.
    War 1h without healing vs other classes: disadvantage war.
    The reasons are obvious, the simple fact that war hits less times than other characters.
    Also, another problem, are the colldown reductions. The situation is more complex than "removing healing"... lol
    If healing is removed, Ranger will become the best pvp class. OP evasion + OP damage; how could a war compete without healing?

    Your interest is not balancing, but nerf dk. How it can be balanced the fact that the ranger has: more damage, more defense and more evasion of the mage? REPEAT: MORE DAMAGE, MORE EVASION AND MORE DEFENSE in pvp.
    But, for some "unexplainable" reason, this is "right" in your mind.
    If you want to talk about balancing, also highlight the "unjust" things in your class.
    Is it just hunting trap without cooldown against war? Imagine against a war without healing ^^

    What makes unbalanced pvp, is to use the same pvp rules for pvp. That's why pvp is a joke, currently.
     
  14. UndergroundKiller

    UndergroundKiller Forum Expert

    His PvP build has 75% armor... Even if you (not Phyrix... A "you" in general) don't have a PvP 1h build, you would know that with such low armor, you would get smashed so hard by enemies... So he is not OP even in a million years with those stats, even tho I can say he could kill my char easily.

    :D if you use guardian vs a dk, either he is your friend and you want to make him regen rage fast, or you lack some neurons.

    1v1 map is pretty small, also DKs have battle cry, charge, rage jump and dragon hide that can be used to get near the enemy (no need to mention insane HP regen, since ULTRAPEINLICH did it already), while mage has just teleport.

    Higher HP is due to the need to get near the enemy.

    It's PvP. Also you say it like mobs doesn't attack ranged classes too.


    Ranged classes have a theorycal advantage just VS Grimmag an other statics bosses. When it come to guys like Heredur and such, the better way is to stay near them and attack-dodge them, since run and hit would be less efficient.


    Warrior can have the same dmg and higher defences, plus regen skill/talent, compared to other classes.


    I remember late lv45, where some DKs were killing mortis in 1 minute or something :D


    it is not "iMmUnItY"... If you don't have one, level up a ranger, then, when you have Blade Dance, use to attack a group of mobs. It will show you how that skills works.

    actually, if a good ranger and a good dk would try it, I would suggest to make them 1v1, with DK not using regen skill. This would be showing what would happen.
    Also, as it has been already said, considering the high Armor values, even after an armor break skill, PS can be better than EA.

    That skill has a cooldown a concentration cost and it doesn't stun.
    You can reduce it's cooldown by 10% using 2 talent points;
    You can make it concentration-free by activating 3 points talent;
    You can make it stun the enemy that activates it by using 5 talent points.

    Royal pauldrons of Hunting Trap can reduce its cooldown even more, but without high tier CD reduction runes, it still has ~2 sec cooldown.

    So, to spam it, you need BUY Emilia's unique and to BUY/WIN/EARN (since you can get them from Leaderboards) cooldown reduction runes.

    Goku has 3 apples and Vegeta has only 2.
    MajinBuu eats one of Goku's apples.
    How many apples has now Goku and how many has Vegeta?

    Yeah, and DK has more defense, same damage, almost same evasion, plus HP regeneration, compared to a Ranger. REPEAT: MORE DEFENSE, SAME DAMAGE, ALMOST same EVASION, plus HP REGEN in pvp:D.
    Now, who should be hit for first by Nerf-Hammer? (Already taking into account that "rebalance" means "nerf").
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  15. gastonp74

    gastonp74 Forum-Apprentice

    I think that if BP wants to balance classes in PVE they should start by giving mages the ability to heal like the other 3 classes, without needing to kill a mob first to heal yourself.
    That would make mages more viable when facing bosses and farming alone. It seems to me that BP is focusing on group play but not everybody likes to play in group or not always you can find a group to play with.
     
  16. sargon234

    sargon234 Forum Overlooker

    rangers don't really have that ability either
    Yes, they have the wolves and the tree, but in infernal, the minions are so easily wiped out that this ability can be ignored
     
  17. DBS-Flamelurker

    DBS-Flamelurker Junior Expert

    Many bosses are slow and / or have slow ranged attacks. The other classes can increase the speed of travel obtaining advantage, unlike the war.

    War? Healing.
    Other classes? Range.

    Do you want healing? Remove range. If it is useless, if it is not an advantage, removing it will make no difference. ;)

    For me there is no problem, they can remove all the attacks with "high range" and give healing to all the characters. It will be funny.
    Simple to understand.

    Your analysis is wrong. Do not evaluate the benefits of the other characters, especially the Ranger, having an attack like EA and more Defense / Damage / Evasion than the other characters with range. eheh

    If Dance had been completely immune to the totality of its animation, it would be OP.
    I have every character except dwarf. Dance of blades, if used well, can evade more attacks. Obviously, in the middle of a crowd, monsters can be hit during the last animations.

    Yes, it will be nice to see war die (unless war is stronger than his opponent).

    Not even scream heals without selecting talent ^^
    You only need to select talent when you fight war. 2 seconds is a ridiculous time, for a stun.
    And war must reach you.

    - DK without healing does not work in pve (for how it is structured). In pvp healing can be "rebalanced" but not removed.
    Remove healing, it will make useless dk.
    I explained the reasons, good game.
     
  18. UndergroundKiller

    UndergroundKiller Forum Expert

    I will write it again, highlighting foundamental parts...

    A DK has same damage and higher defence, plus it has hp regeneration skill and talent

    Did you get it now?


    Nope, I've already showed you that Ranger is underpowered in normal circumnstances, when talking about PvE. After getting decent attack speed and Q7 set, it can outclass a "pair level" SW (mage) and be on the same spot with SM (dwarf). All of them are second to DK.
    About 2-handed PvP, as I've already wrote, RA can be good vs another RA and, maybe a 2-handed DK, thanks to blade dance, since Fireballs have a quite big hitbox and with 30k max dmg, they deal very high damage. Also, vs a SM, you have to hope your EA hit him and he dies, otherwise...
    About 1-hand, the only good set up to win vs a 1-Handed DK is the one adopted by @ULTRAPEINLICH. So, out of 4 classes, the ones that can kill a DK are DKs and Rangers, only under certain circumnstances.
    If that isn't DK's domain, I am Gilgamesh o_O


    AGAIN, there is NO IMMUNITY in Blade Dance, okay?!
    You are in Point A, use Blade Dance to travel to Point B, so your hitbox is shifted from Point A to Point B, like a damn Rage Jump, Rocket Jump, Dive, Charge or Telepor.
    As I've already said to that Fab guy, mobs and minions are more cleaver than you? :rolleyes:


    Who knows


    Just talents, not with an equipment and hard-to-get runes.

    I bought Premium pauldrons at cap level 50. I got 4x runes to reduce cooldown, for a total of 12% reduction (wich is pretty low, I guess). With those runes, pauldrons and talents, I can place an Hunting Trap nearly every 2 sec (a bit less, I'd say).
    So again, if you don't have those pauldrons and runes, you can't spam. And BtW, Hunting Trap is only good vs warriors.
    Regen works very well and doesn't require anything out of talent points. That's the difference.
    Anyway, I wasn't comparing Regen and Hunting Trap, I was just showing you your misunderstandings.


    And to compensate that, a war has higher defensive stats (hp actually), fast movement skills and 8 sec of TRUE immunity to negative effects, plus high damage reduction.


    I won't be so sure. In the past DKs had no HP REGENERATION (except mighty wild swing and PvP talent) and the other classes were already ranged classes :rolleyes:, and they (DKs) were doing fine.


    No, you didn't.
    All you wrote is:
    "No regen = no DK"
    "But rangers have EA"
    "But rangers have Hunting Trap"
    "But look at rangers, they kill SM and SW, but not DK, and even tho they need rebalance".
     
  19. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    don't want to interrupt your lovely conversation, just want to emphasize this actually is a very valid comment. DK were on top of PVP all the time, at least in 3v3 and 1v1 without enormous healings and lifekeepers. they only had that lvl40 Fame talent. and they also didn't have all those infinite stuns. and players did have 4 seconds immunity from them.

    so got all of that. what did other guys get to compensate?) nothing. BP just made already the strongest character immortal. with that passive talents DK were able to heal a lot. now its 5x time that. I doubt any other class received any sort of weapon to compensate even for 10% more, not even speaking of 500% more.

    now all the smart tanks follow one clear path - damage is of no importance - I need just a little bit, to kill poor mage as soon as I can heal all the damage. and I sure can. and since all items are now craftable, even complete defensive tanks will have 10k dmg and 80% crit, and some free crit dmg from the sets or runes. everything else in defense. 80% armor is a piece of cake now even in a glass canon setups, resists will get there soon. all the damage received will be divided by 5 right away. by 4 again when blocked. and healing will heal it all, as it works of 200k hp.
     
  20. I am noob I suppose when it comes to pvp because as this thread has stated, things are very unbalanced so I avoid it unless necessary(clover). I don't seek out having to take time out of PW/Events that are more worth my time to see who is stronger because honestly at this point, since many have played for years, they probably are, but my stats are quickly climbing. Also I was looking more at his farming stats in the photo, not the pvp since those seem more useful to me. I can almost bet he has either played for years, or spent alot of ander to get those stats, or both. Those stats for a mage really don't come easy. He probably knows how to craft really well to. I also notice Phyrix he doesn't use premium items. Only PW/Event :)

    Btw thanks for the pictures. I saved them so I can get those items for future sets. ^^

    Just thought I would share this with all the SW on here. I guess there is a way to 'possibly' kill a DK. I speak only on OP levels since these in the video are very strong toons. Something to think about, armor over damage when it comes to taking on a DK but then the amount of gems, and upgrades to do so with new equipment. Its just mind boggling. This mage though has been playing a long time and has had the time to build up his toon so for those who haven't , you're pretty much screwed as pvp is now. Nice. Pvp is great. This mage is amazing.

    Actually the mage did do better in the above video but he did so by not relying on damage, but on armor and heavy skill/tactic, and great equipment-that took years to build, and tons of gems. It was definitely not a 20-30 sec match looks like, and he did have to dodge alot because lets face it, if he had stayed stationary, he would have been dead. Even with good armor, one-maybe two hits, and the mage is done due to low health that doesn't compare to a Dk's and his regen and not enough damage because he had to trade damage for armor. It takes the mage a while some of the times to really do any sort of damage to the DK. So DKs do have the advantage, of course. :l
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
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