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Development Team Letter - CLASS BALANCING

Discussion in 'Headquarters Archive' started by DSO Production Team, Nov 1, 2017.

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  1. Phyrix

    Phyrix Board Analyst

    I dont use that healing skill, to me it sucks I just use dragon hide and banner of war.
    Yes youre not going to win against a dk that heals faster than you can hit it but added if he has only 1k damage technically he doesnt win either I would say those trump matches that the win should be decided based on damage dealt and nothing else.

    Now a damage 1h that does 10 - 15k damage is a whole other story yes he can kill you, what to do in this regard I dont know.

    I do know however that any class that has the amount of hp a dk has is key because then they can handle more attacks from said dk.

    For the class balancing act I would suggest increasing the hp gems for all other classes and increasing mana/concentration etc skills aka allow a player to invest in intelligence so that they can do their skills a lot more, this in turn should balance out the whole game.
     
  2. JEKAJE

    JEKAJE Forum-Greenhorn

    How does he have 80% even after armor break? I thought it takes about 22 000 to have 80%. So he would need over 100 000 armor to achieve that.
     
  3. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    Thats your mistake that you dont use the most op skill so you cant judge all the players based on your reasoning not to use your class at its best

    Wrong he wins again since you cant heal and he will deal like 400 per hit but you will die eventually especially if he uses the skill which makes you bleed


    Another wrong thing if i spam more weak skills ( which ahem all the mage skills are low scaling skills ( 126%fireball) and the tank has atleast 130k+ hp and the hammer with the max% hp heal you will again heal him more since you will hit him more with weak skills...
     
  4. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master


    That question was aimed at Moot but either way thank you for the reply xD

    Finally you landed on earth with this statement.This is the problem right now and this is what needs to be adressed.Warriors healing more than the dmg they receive.

    The answer is simple, you have nothing that you can do hence why so many complaints in this thread x)..Your dmg as a SW/RA/SM with 1hand is that lame that the warrior wont even be bothered if u hit him or not.You've seen how eager that warrior was to avoid singularity in the video provided above...

    You have 10-15k dmg with 1hand, after the ressist, armor and block rate/ block strenght, the actual dmg that you wil inflict will be few k per hit max to a warrior that heals 2-3k per sec.You would not see so many top players arguing about this on this thread if this wasnt accurate.

    The problem here is that every other class but SM has 0 regenerations.Even if they have the same hp as the DK, that dk can still recover the hp entirely while every other class cant ...if they make a mistake they have no way to get back in the game while the warrior can.Wigger explained it better few posts above.

    You are not the only one suggesting how to improve the crappy classes lol.Many of us tried it for the past 1 year and a half just to see BP doing nothing lol.There are a lot of ways posted here on forums meant to improve this, ways presented by top players who really know what they are talking about like sebastian_fl...trakilaki and few others and still BP decided not to listen to them and act on their own.

    This game wont ever have a serious balance if BP keeps on neglecting the feedback that is given to them on forums.
     
  5. Phyrix

    Phyrix Board Analyst

    And there is why I want to argue to an extent, you want all other classes to heal?

    They are ranged more hp would mean a lot for a ranged player not so much for a melee player.

    Example lets say any said build had to get to you and you healed while they are not ranged would in turn make all other classes the classes to complain about.

    Yes like wigger said once a certain amount of his hp is gone it is gone for good.
    Applying more hp would mean less of it is gone for good, if he had dk level hp he would win every ,match no matter what you throw at him because they cannot like him attack from a range.

    MERGED

    Personally I like the cube set but I think block is stupid.

    I want to make a cube damage build but in all aspects keep it exactly the same as my 2h build damage on every little thing and cd and crit.

    Then I want to put only hp in cube shield and only damage into weapon.

    And any class can do this due to dragan bonus with seeker pouldrons etc, what you gain is 50% cd and 80% hp on shield and 50% from set bonus.

    * So yeah theres my build plan block tate etc put aside because a shield give more armor resist and hp, and in this case insane hp for any class

    Hey Ron I dont know how but can you show me your complete build somehow please I want to see them offensive stats and how you got em( your items), you have my written word I will not share it with anyone.
     
    Last edited by moderator: Mar 25, 2018
  6. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master


    That would be nice.Not healing evenly of course, some should heal more, some less based on range/dmg and other factors.

    Block is the most important part when playing with 1hand lol.It is never stupid to have 80% or close to 80%.

    You should put block rate and strenght only and not hp.Maybe when infernal 20 makes it ingame, having block rate and strenght wont be that important because the shield alone will provide you 80% for pvp xD..Until then for warriors the best would be to have 2x-2x block strenght and block rate or 3x- 1x, depending on what you have on shoulders.

    Its useless to have 4x% hp on shield if you have 15-20% block rate because most oponents will deal to you more dmg than your entire hp lol.Until ur block rate is 80% and block strenght as close as possible, there arent other picks .

    No...Excepting warriors and maybe SMs, no other classes have the luxury of taking hits and regenerate the hp lost.Without taking hits you cant max the spider set bonuses and if you play anything but warrior, by the time you get to max the bonuses of the spider set you would be dead already lol.
     
  7. Phyrix

    Phyrix Board Analyst


    No you dont get it, I am not talking block etc.
    Let me show you:
    Firstly you can craft any 1h mace/ hammer with 200% idoti and any 2h weapon with 300% idoti.

    But when you craft a 2h you make everything damage:
    Witch seeker pouldrons/ torso with 40% damage / belt 40% damage / dragan helm either 2/2 or however you choose it with crit and damage.
    Amulet with cd
    Speed on gloves
    full cd on your rings whichever you choose to use
    full speed on boots and gloves
    then runes in the assortment they belong whichever they may be
    Now the only difference is youre not going to use a 2h weapon youre going to use the cube set set up in this way
    Not block on shoulders and torso ( like a block based tank)
    Just pure damage build with 130% (80% + 50% set bonus) more hp because thats almost all you can put into your shield if you dont have block in shoulders and torso.
    Iow a pure damage build like wiggers' except its 1h
     
  8. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

  9. Phyrix

    Phyrix Board Analyst

    Do I talk too much?
     
  10. fab

    fab Advanced

    If every sw switches to playing as a dk, 4 years later there will be punching bags for dks and rangers.
    It will be flooded by rangers and dks :p:p:p
     
  11. demon1992

    demon1992 Forum-Greenhorn

    you just a noob.
     
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  12. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Your good question almost got buried in all the mindless drivel in here, but here is the short version.

    Armor break is a "-XX% armor/resistance" debuff. That % is calculated in the same step as all the rest of the % Armor or % Resistance. Just for an example, if I have a torso with 19.5% armor and a pair of shoulders with 3*13.5%=40.5% armor, a Dragan's cape with 5% armor, I would have +65% armor. If your total armor with that was somehow 20000 before accounting for that % armor, then your total armor would be 33000 with that +65%. When you get hit with an 80% armor break, your armor after the break would be 20000*(1.65-0.80)=17000 and not 33000*0.20=6600. People often ask which is more important to have on a torso, % Armor on this Item vs % Armor, and things like this are why it is important to have at least a little of both. Additionally, the diminishing returns that armor and resistance offer mean that even if you had 80% damage reduction without any +% Armor, losing 80% would not drop you to 16% damage reduction.

    Here is a practical example. I have 10858 fire resistance. When I get hit by a -50% resistance debuff in the PWs, my resistance drops to 6430. That is only a 41% loss of my total, but if you look at my resistance like this: 8856.5*1.226=10858, then the 50% loss would look like this: 8856.5*(1.226-0.5)=8856.5*0.726=6429.8~6430.

    I hope this helps you understand a little more about the mechanics of this game and the complexities that are involved in building an end game build.

    I love it... even a forum Greenhorn with a single post can see it. :D
     
    JEKAJE likes this.
  13. DocWhisky

    DocWhisky Forum Connoisseur

    Lets face it ... PvP is fundamentally broken. And no.. NO AMOUNT of nerfing 1 class or another .. or even boosting 1 class or another will fix it.
    The flaw starts at the base characters.. if true PvP balance is what you are after, then you need to take away all gear, and wisdom and start with just base characters. Adjust skills, strengths and weaknesses until each class has as much chance to kill the other, or avoid being killed by another as any other class.

    You can build a building on a crap foundation... and keep adding to it over the years, but eventually that building will fall down.

    But in this game, there is a nonadjustable variable. 1 Melee class vs 3 Ranged classes.

    If this game was pure pvp, it would still be very hard to "balance" the classes. If all the classes had the exact same gear, and the exact same stats, the ranged classes would have a distinct advantage over over the melee class.... So the question is.... how do you make it fair for the melee class.. stronger armor? more HP? Faster run speed? Higher dmg? faster healing?

    I say it wouldnt matter what you did to the melee class to try to gain balance, the other classes would always cry foul. "They have more this, or more that.. it so unfair".

    So to gain this so called balance, lets let the melee class be able to hit you from across the map.......no longer does melee have to be next to you to do dmg... all he has to do is put his reticle on you and press attack. but then, that would make him a ranged character as opposed to melee.

    Melee class will ALWAYS have to have a different set of stats than ranged class, there is no way around it. It has to be that way to be "FAIR".

    And if we are going to be "fair" Why does the ranged class of Ranger have one of the best melee attacks in the game?? If rangers have Deadly blow, why cant DK have Explosive Axe??(a ranged attack where a DK can throw an "axe" with the same results of the Explosive Arrow of Rangers)

    As for those that say DK has always been top dog... lets not forget R155 almost killed the DK class... so many that did play DK switched to Ranger or Dwarf that the era of Dwarfansang was upon us and that lasted for a long time.

    In short, each class has its advantages, and its disadvantages....

    I have played DK for a long time, I also played Mage, and Ranger... I stuck with DK not because it was easier than the other classes, but because its head down and charge in style of fighting suits me. When I tried that style with the other classes, it didnt work so well.

    I dont pvp because the introduction of glyphs and tiers has made it impossible to compete againt any class with all T6, lvl 60 gear.
    So personally, I dont care what they do to pvp.... just dont screw with the pve and all the hard work I have put in trying to get my DK back to what it was before R155


    Thanks, Doc.
     
  14. UndergroundKiller

    UndergroundKiller Forum Expert

    And I don't care if the tank dies... It adds some spice to the gameplay :D
    But there isn't just me and you, so...



    It looks like you didn't read my little story about apples.

    DKs have 4 apples (High DMG, High DEF, Melee range, efficient Regeneration Skills). Three of them are good (High DMG, High DEF and Efficient Regeneration Skills), the other one is rotten (Melee Range).

    Other classes have 3 apples (High DMG, Range and Lower DEF). Two of them are good (High DMG and Range), the other one is rotten (Lower DEF).

    Taking away "High DMG" from the list, since both the parts have it, the result is 2 good and 1 bad for DKs, 1 good and 1 bad for other classes.


    In other words, High DEF and Regen shouldn't be thogheter.
    Then, wich one of the two is the more game breaking?


    I 100% agree with this, but BP will never rebalance this way, so...
     
  15. Falk101

    Falk101 Junior Expert

    As DK with all defenses max i don't take any pleasure in PvP, i feel like a noob there. A mid ranger can one shot me easy... We'll see with the new compétences if i can take pleasure in PvP.

    Or maybe the best way is to replace PvP by poker or connect4 fights, like that all classes will be balanced ^^
     
    GoulishNightmares likes this.
  16. Phyrix

    Phyrix Board Analyst

    You guys know they mentioned the top 1% of dks etc but think about it and this goes for any class even wigger.
    Example unless wigger has the same sized runes as the dk he is facing its gonna be hard for him and this even includes tanks that think they are almighty let me show you why.
    armor on this item runes 40% x5 and if its a gold value t6 item youre talking 7 - 8k armor from only that.
    Hp we are talking 200% on this item x 2 - 4 depending on what is in boots and gloves.

    So no matter what the class if the guy youre facing has maxed runes you wont win no matter what.
    Everyone says end game but there is no such thing yet and there wont ever be on normal servers.
    Example you can have all gems maxed after years yet you still dont and no matter what you say, you still dont have 5x40% resist runes or 15x 40% hp on this item runes but there is builds that has approached levels like that in August of 2017
    Also you cannot compare yourself to a guy that has taken part in all xmas events but there is players that still has razer costumes, my advice to you would be to not complain when comparing yourself to such a guy because he is gonna whip your ... no matter his class.
    You think your build is strong?
    Man there's players with legendary 2h items that still has old values like 79% idoti x4
     
  17. bruluci

    bruluci Forum-Apprentice

    i bet if they where to actually ban all the exploiters there would be a lot less 1%ers... just saying.

    Trying to "balance pvp" is impossible when pve stats carry over. the entire game is based on heirarchy not balance. ranking is based on
    "games played" not skill level. there is no real way to judge a character being "better" other than opinion (eg. marsha/feild marshal/master...) all pointless names that more often show a characters' account-age rather then skill-level. when you see "slightly-favored" in a pvp match... what is that based on? the "CV" number? another pointless number.

    if you line up characters of similar ranking only, you wind up waiting for an hour to get a match. they tried that... it was terrible... killed grouping wih friends and 3v3 died. NO ONE ENJOYS WAITING!!!!

    They where on to something with the Warrior Group Competition way back when... But lack of communication and legality of gambling for real money killed that. A shame too, it seemed to spark a lot of interest in both players and even third party companies (Razor)

    Reading through this novel of rants, trying to keep an open-mind... I have 3 suggestions:

    1. un-nerf the SW instead of nerfing other characters (they really should be doing the most damage)

    2. base PVP ranking on competetive percentages (eg. just like every organized sport in existance)

    3. apply cap/handicap to pvp matches. (eg. awarding extra points for a low ranking player that overcomes a high ranking player - ranking will self-balance in time based on a players skill)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    PVP events? warrior group... guild wars... a quartly competition with in-game rewards that are WORTH the time/effort maybe?
    Sparking some interest in PVP other than the occasional clover would go a long way. And not just the top 3 hackers/no-lifers... everyone
    who participates should be rewarded. Without reward, people lose interest.

    PVP is the most underutilized aspect of this game!
     
  18. DocWhisky

    DocWhisky Forum Connoisseur

    Unless they can pull a rabbit out of their hats and actually pull off a good balance scheme, I have ZERO CONFIDENCE in the current team/companies ability to SUCCESSFULLY pull off a fair and balanced guild wars. Not to mention that guild wars would make all top players group together in just a few guilds and those guilds would be the only ones participating in guild war matches. So in this game, as things sit.... guild wars would just be rewards for the top 2 or 3 guilds
    But I do agree with your notion that some rewards for individual pvp'rs would peek some players interest in pvp
    .

    As for me, I cant stand the DSO pvp... I started pvp way back in the days of death match on games like doom and quake, unreal and half life.. loved it!. the better you were, the more kills you got... all toons were the same, all gear the same, the only difference was your knowledge of the map, and you luck/skill in finding good weapons. So for me, any time a lvl 55 player with all royal gems, all T6 gear maxed at lvl 60is paired against another player with gear not even half that good its a damn travesty. And makes the other player frustrated and quit doing pvp and some times quit the whole game.


    Thanks, Doc.
     
    bruluci likes this.
  19. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master

    True, but the art team is busy with other things xD
     
    MikeyMetro and ULTRAPEINLICH like this.
  20. ULTRAPEINLICH

    ULTRAPEINLICH Forum Duke

    No, that's simply wrong. Do you really not realize how important and powerful healing is?

    Can you pls stop using my name or examples of my build to spread false facts? Especially since you actually don't know my build setup how it's done.

    I won't join your discussions, I'm bored of explaining the same thing over and over again. @Fugnuts and @UndergroundKiller also did a good job in explaining why the 1h dk can become the most broken, powerful and unbeatable class.

    Let me just comment your last statement, where you are saying that any player with same stats like a dk can win vs. dk respectively has no chance to win if he doesnt have the same runes/gems:
    Thats a great expample to show how wrong and inexperienced you are.
    I'm far away from having perfect runes. But there were DKs that had exactly that kind of runes (thanks to the daily deal exploit). One of those DKs for example was "Madara", a fully exploited DK on Heredur (he's banned now). Even though he had perfect stats, perfect runes 2x200% and so on, I haven't lost a single 1v1 vs him. Simply because his build was bad. He didn't stack %armor to reduce my -85%armor break impact and thus received a lot of dmg.
    However, DKs that stack %armor on torso/shoulders hardly receive any extra dmg and can heal the little dmg they receive quickly (getting to the part where I'm repeating myself) and thus become indestructible at some point for a player without healing. I cannot win vs DKs like that anymore even though I might have equal/better runes and gems.
    It's their combination of heal+stack massive def+crazy battle cry uptime for runspeed+best stuns in the game+dealing decent dmg that make that class broken/unbeatable for any other classes but dk. And that combination can be achieved with cube set, good runes and decent torso/shoulders. This is not as hard to achieve as you might think and surely doesn't only apply to 1% of top dks. This build is spreading quickly now.
    And to finish; any range advantage vs DKs become useless once he can heal your dmg quickly and can rely on reducing your hp down steadily with catch skills like 80%battly cry uptime / charge/ jump.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
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