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Development Team Letter - CLASS BALANCING

Discussion in 'Headquarters Archive' started by DSO Production Team, Nov 1, 2017.

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  1. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    So you are saying that only exploiters in this game are tanks.
    That is completely false ... exploiters have no class ... they are simply cheaters.
    That 1% you are talking about is not 1% at all ... those DKs who are defending their class came up with this ridiculous number. Tanks are all OP 100% because the class on its own is OP. Some players are already there and some are not yet there but they will be. Those who said "their tanks can be killed by any class and they don't see how tanks can be OP" are either blindly defending their toons or are speaking the truth but heir toons are week. I will guess they are speaking the truth ... and there is perfect answer why is that happening. Because they have weak toons are not in the ranking frame of those above. There is no chance to defeat a well built average and above tank.

    Everything you said is false
    PvP matchmaking is not based on hierarchy ... only the leaderboards are based on hierarchy thus counting only the honor points (those who have more points are above those who have less). The matchmaking is based on some kind of calculation ... but the core is win/loss ratio. The more matches you win the higher your ranking goes and vice versa ... the more matches you lose the lower your ranking is. The game is selecting your opponents by your average rank (not talking about LB ranking) from the players available and registered for fight at that given time.
    If the matchmaking was working like you said ... this could have never happened:
    [​IMG]
    Novice Centurion Favored vs. almost Field Marshal? Well ... yes that s possible and nothing is wrong with that. Why? Lets assume that Novice centurion has 10 losses and 10 wins ... and lets assume I have 4000/4000. We are perfect match.
    Thus the following:
    is wrong. Because it is already working that way. No sport team can get into finals with 7 defeats 0 wins and 3 draws and play against team who has 10/0/0.
    But the game is already working that way. You get more points if you kill high ranked player and get less points when you kill lower ranked player. It has been like that since always. You can see that in the screen above ^ ... if my opponent was a Grand Marshal or if he had even same rank as me I would get more points.
    One of the main problems why SWs are less effective than before is the new equipment.
    Let bonuses and buffs aside and take into consideration only the base stats.
    In the past all defensive items had only armor as base stat and HP/Armor as enchantments ... very few were having all resistance or some kind of resistance in the enchantments and bonuses.
    This new gear by default is having armor, HP and resistance. Even a new player when equipped with the new gear has a high armor/resistance ... thus the gems lost their value. In the past it was quite opposite ... players had to maintain high resistance with diamonds. Those who had more diamonds had more resistance and having more resistance was making them less vulnerable to SWs attacks. Most of the SWs skills are dealing elemental damage ... therefore they are less effective with the nowadays gear.


    And they had different set of stats in the past ... someone very smart has decided that all classes should have the damage and attack speed of a DK. That was the single most stupid thing that they could have ever done. It is like hanging wolf tails on sheep and let them among wolves.
    But they already have Explosive Axe ... it is called a ground breaker . Nothing can survive the explosion at the end of the ground breaker :D
    Doc what was the last time you had a PvP match? 2-3 years ago? Well ... Deadly blow is completely useless against DK. You don't want to get in close combat with a DK ... close combat with DKs is a past. Today you stand no chance because :
    1. you get permanently stunned
    2. you have no survivability
    Lets face it ... the game as it is now is a result of fundamentally bad decisions made by the people who are managing and pulling the strings out. I don't believe it is the dev team. This game was Diablo clone but it was unique in its own way ... now not just they have made the game "one of the other unrecognizable games in the ocean of games" but they are not even trying to cover that up. Just look how are they shamelessly copy-pasting features from different games without even taking effort to make one on their own. ATM players themselves are the only advertisers of the game ... how can you sell a product if no one knows it exist? Who knows ... maybe the Art Department forgot to spread the flyers out ... because we know ... why should the Art Department sitting idle when they can sort financial and PR things out.
    The fish rots from the head down ... someone decided not to give more resources to the game managers/developers ... and the situation is the way it is now.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
    MikeyMetro likes this.
  2. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master


    Ive said it countless times in the past that it was and is a mistake for mages to have similar dmg as a DK...same goes for rangers and SMs.Mages shouldve been the top of the top when it came to dmg, warriors shouldve been the top when it came to defense and rangers/SMs should be in the middle..one should have a bit more dmg than the other and viceversa.When it came to fastest boss kills, the mages shouldve been by far the best and not warriors (assuming that the mage playing had some skills and wouldnt die like a noobaa xD).

    The offensive gems, the skill dmg shouldve been way higher for mages than they are now, and not 60 dmg for a dmg dealer and 60 dmg for a tank when it came to rubies.If the ranger's EA does 500% dmg, the mages ice sphere shouldve done at least that ...same for lightning strike.

    The mana costs shouldve been reduced for mages and the skill dmg for fireballs and other skills shouldve been increased in order for the mages with 1hand to be efficient and not a waste of craftings.BP came with the best solution...nerf all by adding new skill tree and in 1-2 years when most will get max skills, lvl up and the madness starts again ^^


    Dont forget about those who accepted these bad decisions and tried to change the minds of those who had the guts of saying that this and that is not right.Those carry almost the same amount of blame as the ones in charge with the changes.
     
  3. DBS-Flamelurker

    DBS-Flamelurker Forum Inhabitant

    Exactly, with healing.

    Without healing, instead? (which is the point of the speech)

    The defense advantage becomes superfluous, when Ranger can, with EA, do double damage.

    So two similar characters, but one has range and one does not. Dragon skin is less useful, at high levels (with 80% reduction). Only useful thing is immunity, useless against Ranger... precisely against EA.

    Ranger can reduce cooldown adrenaline, adrenaline is better than battle cry.

    Currently there are 3 types of amethyst. The same method could be applied to rubies.

    More powerful: Dwarf and Mage.

    Medium: Ranger (because it has a better amethyst than Mage).

    Lower (current): dk.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
    semen470 likes this.
  4. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master

    The healing from the knowledge is more than enough..under 33% = full health every 1 min....


    Exactly.Lots of people agreed to this, even top players who dont play mages.What stopped BP from doing any changes in the past 2 years to fix this? Nothing!!...Why havent they fixed this then? Cuz warriors have to be the best or else DSO wont be DSO xD
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
    semen470 likes this.
  5. DBS-Flamelurker

    DBS-Flamelurker Forum Inhabitant

    - I was referring to those who want to remove healing in pvp.

    - Set, and changes in the game have inevitably made some skills better than others. For example, Ranger would not be better than Mage in pve without set Q7. Another problem is cooldown reduction, it can make some skills balanced by cooldown simply OP.
     
  6. kraken

    kraken Forum-Apprentice

    Hey there,

    As a mage player currently (in the past dk/ranger), my feeling is that we need small steps ahead instead of what they are proposing atm. The upcoming proposed changes, I think they require a lot of time & effort to develop and the outcome is 50/50, meaning they could improve the current overall balancing or they can make things much worse.
    As i have farmed with groups from 2 to 5 men, other sw's, rangers, sm's, i think mage can be slowly improved by making some simple/faster changes:
    • increase velocity for FS
    • increase range for FS
    • make FS explode on impact/remain as it is, based on talent (instead of slowing talent)
    • decrease LS impact time by 80% instead of 33%
    • decrease mana costs of FS by 10% and LS by 25%
    Make these changes and see how that works for couple of months. But for sure it will improve mages PVE, FS for maps, LS for bosses. It will also improve mages PVP - FS.
    What i saw so far is that, when I am grouped with good toons, even if i can clear a group of mobs by 1-2 FS, the ranger already cleared the group and the SM the same. That is because they also have high dmg skills and their skills apply the dmg/hit the target faster than SW high dmg skills.

    Go from here; then we can see if value of gems should be different amongst classes and so on.
    Baby steps.

    Yeah, so that's what I consider that has to be made in terms of balancing atm.
    Don't nerf anything please.

    PS: and a general small step towards PVP balancing - add that talent that gave stun immunity for 3-4 sec, if I remember well.

    GL & HF to everyone!
     
    ULTRAPEINLICH likes this.
  7. ROOK

    ROOK Someday Author

    @DBS-Flamelurker: what did the rangers do to you? After your endless crusade against rangers in the Italian forum now you try here?
     
  8. sargon234

    sargon234 Forum General

    So apparently we're at the end of march and on the test server there no updates to test the new skill system
     
  9. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    I would suggest to make FS an "Explode @ desired location" (without any talent needed) just like C-14 Rocket and not "explode on Impact" so you can decide where it should explode passing by any enemy or as a point blank shot.
    I would decrease the mana cost of both the skills but I wouldn't decrease nor the travel speed of FS or Landing time of lS because that would make "too strong" in other areas (if you know what I mean).

    This sounds a bit exagerated.
    SM needs 2" to deploy a turret, it has 0,5" cooldown on turrets, so he needs about 2,5" to deploy 2 turrets, they cannot crit so there's no burst. I was comparing my timing against a SW and a RA during this event (which you farm mostly on painful) against mobs that were basically 3 shotted by my competitors (that were largerly undergeared compared to me) and they were on par on me because the burst they could deal was far better than mine.
    The dmg sustain of SW should be increased (tipically usefull in the boss fights) but the burst seems decent.
    New sets to buff un-used skills would be another interesting option.
     
    semen470 likes this.
  10. DBS-Flamelurker

    DBS-Flamelurker Forum Inhabitant

    Funny.

    You belong to a category of Ranger: touchy.
    "Balancing class", do you know what that means? Your class is also included.
    However, I have never made any crusade against Ranger (unlike many who have proposed to nerf war) this is a place for adults, friend. Beating your feet will not help.

    You did not follow the discussion, your intervention is off topic. lol...
     
  11. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Duke

    Let dks do less damage yeah thats the answer
    Let's nerf their healing yeah thats the answer
    Let's their equipment be nerfed yeah thats the answer.
    Nerf dks nerf em nerf em
    It will be the end of DSO
    You all can moan all you like but building a DK is 10 times more work than any other kind of toon.
    There is not question about it.
    So lets rid the game of the most pertinent class in the game.

    Now for pve.
    Duuude youre supposed to keep the boss at bay not die all the time
    Ugh hate that I play dk 2h only
    You nerf my damage I will quit this game

    You guys forget dso is a pve first and then a pvp and not the other way around.
    Pvp mainly serves the players whom has already reached a level where pve does not matter
    That regen skill in wisdom, I am a damage dk even with 1h dmg setup I wont use it and I wont cry if its gone.
    You all forget the most important part of what is coming and that is unlimited wisdom levels
    With a whole new wisdom tree
    Events that will have wisdom and wisdom being able to be farmed
    I suggest we see how that plays out because even with the current wisdom trees if I got all on 25 wow just wow
    And that would go for nearly every class I think.
    Also skills I wish they gave us more skill points to be able to use all skills maxed

    Am not sure but apparently I saw a pic of a 2h dk destroying a 1h godlike dk.
    If this is true it means there is a way to topple the said godlike class.

    There is no need for arguing from any other class than the dk except their costs and casting speeds and cooldowns needs to be adjusted
    Example if lightning strike was immediate then almost all sw would use it in pvp
    I am however not on an oracle level in this forum but as stated by other forum members there is certain skills that is better than that of a dk example Adrenalin of a ranger
    Sw has an amazing teleport maybe its range can be enhanced
    Adrenilin can be lengthened
    chain lightnings damage can be increased to 60 or 75%
    Main attack of ranger can be increased to about 75%
    This like this will improve the pve and pvp experience
    Any sw that has a 75% chain lightning will be able to farm even faster and with bearach perk it will work really great
    Meteor can have a cost and cooldown reduction
    How about a meteor storm for sw?
    Why does all classes want to destroy dk and not look how their class can be enhanced to be able to compete with dk in both arena and pve?
    Why doesnt everybody on this thread try to think of positive things for their class and try to push that onto the plate for the development team?
     
  12. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    Statements like these just show that you are just scared of your class being nerfed cuz you wont be the top anymore. Wanna know why it wont be the end of DSO? Even if 2h tanks die 1h stays or the oposite. Ialready farm inf 3 without a tank and im not all that powerfull.
    About the build dk taking far more time its a lie . Since if you cant handle high difficulties like going from fatal to inf 1 you can perma farm fatal FOR FREE since you dont use ess or loose any potential resources,...i have a tank and i know. When you go 2h you can pretty much spin around the boss and if you are hit ooooops let me Perma heal bY BEATING THE BOSS ??? I dont see the logic in the dragon hide s update to heal if you atack since its a defensive skill but the heal makes it defensive and offensive at the same time like wat.

    Normally the tankiest class shouldt even deal dmg. Either split him into 2 classes 1 being warlord with 2 build only or a tank with 1 cuz ypu all tanks wanna have endless hp and the dmg of other classes like you just want waaaay to much here.

    Dont forget they are trying to put all the classes under the retarded q7 so they wont increase anything related to q7.
    Meteor storm good but it will make q7 efect harder to keep permanently so it will be again a nerf since with 1 Meteor storm you will miss many opportunities to reset the buff of the q7 at the last second.

    Last of all you think BP Buffs things? For 6 year i havent seen one buff unless its linked with set or smt. They only nerf and if they are going to nerf smt it must be the tank ( if they nerf ranger q7 it will be lv 50 again, dwarfs have no crit so lategame crit classes are good if not better than dwarfs( those who use crit know what to do with the game ) and mages ye they are already slowes of all interms of pve so ye.

    Lv 50 It was dwarfensag, now tankensang + rangersang idk i dont think rangers are weak too but q7 is effective for bosses and burst for me change range q7 to be 5 or 6 sec for precise shot and increase its speed to compensate but EA is really good on its own the q7 makes it like q7 for ranger> the mages as a whole only because of the EA. Which is stupid it makes rangers so linear and they have potential to be so much more
     
  13. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    You dude are belonging to this --> section
    He is not scared ... he is just totally clueless.
    Phyrix ... sorry dude but when I was reading this ... I was laughing so hard I swear a little pee came out :D
     
  14. DBS-Flamelurker

    DBS-Flamelurker Forum Inhabitant

    Another is added :D

    A problem is also how war gets "rage".
    Instead of getting "mana" like other classes, when he dodges he loses it. War is not rewarded for dodging well. Without healing the class would not work.
    If instead his anger was like that of the other classes, without healing it would work better, but it would be without a doubt the worst class in the game (for obvious reasons).
    Regarding the two classes: the problem is that one of those classes works only in groups. Alone, it's useless.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2018
  15. sebastian_fl

    sebastian_fl Count Count

    This is total BS. get a cookie, you are the March champ for dumbest statement)
     
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  16. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Duke

    Actually have you seen it in motion?
    Yes I am a noob but damn considering my cd what it is go look at show what you have calc that cd and tell me its not weird because damn my crits are 7 to 10k higher than it should be
    I know thisbecause my first hit is 24 to 28k and every hit after that is 30 to 37k increased cd by another 16% earlier tonight but still go look at that vid
    Yup totally clueless


    The solo 1h was forever like it would never end
    Clearly you havent run with a 1h dk from start to lvl55
    Many noobs out there has
    Its not fun and it takes a lifetime
    Then when you hit 55 and go 2h you only start realizing what a build can become
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2018
  17. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Look, I'm on the side of the DKs too, but if you are going to try to make a point, make sure you are accurate or more experienced players will tear up your arguments. You not knowing that a RA's base attack is significantly weaker than a DK's base attack hurts your credibility in an argument where you need to see the problem from four different perspectives. I may not play a RA/SW/SM regularly, but I am familiar enough with each of them that I can make a point without saying something that will backfire when another experienced player reads my post and starts to critique it.

    Part of building your credibility is doing your own testing and analysis and drawing your own conclusions. Your claim about a hidden armor break make no sense, but you could have easily come up with a test for your theory. For example, invite another player and observe if their damage increases when you hit the enemy with your swing. I seriously doubt that this is what is happening though. Ockham's Razor stats that when all other things are equal, the simplest answer is usually the right one. In this case, a hidden armor break isn't the most likely solution. The next paragraph is an example of how my thought process progresses through a problem like this.

    With the given crit damage, crits from a 100% damage base attack should range between 22,535 and 28237. As we saw in the video, the highest crit landed by Rage Swing was a 34921. This is outside that range, so we know something is happening, but the question is "What." The weapon/belt combo has a skill that applies +25% damage to Smash and Mighty Wild Swing. What if the developers made a mistake when they coded the skill or a typo/omission when writing the skill description and it actually affects all the DK's damage skills, or at least Rage Swing. To check this, I'll multiply the range above by 1.25 and get 28169 to 35296. This range fits all the observed crits against bleeding foes made with Rage Swing. That is likely the explanation. Now, I wonder if this applies to other skills like Charge, Dragon Fury, Jump, or Head butt. I'll have to test those next...
    ... and then I'd test that before writing up my findings on the forums.

    You do have some decent points in the various arguments you've made, but when you demonstrate an ignorance of other classes or don't analyze a problem and come up with a reasonable hypothesis on your own damage your credibility and subsequently invite players like Trakilaki, Sebastion, or Rhysingstarr to tear your arguments apart. Balance is a touchy topic and going in without being armed with all the facts will always draw criticism. I urge caution in the future (flamelurker, I'm looking at you on this one too, you've said some off the wall stuff too) while drafting your responses in this thread to avoid comments like:

    or
     
  18. One thing we can agree on. Progress xD lol
     
  19. bruluci

    bruluci Forum-Apprentice

    Do you work for the Trump administration? you've successfully twisted everything I said to suit your needs... :D

    My comment on 1%ers was sacastic. my point was CHEATERS WHERE NOT BANNED AS PROMISED!
    -so we agree there... not everything was false.

    Do you realize that you quoted me, said i was wrong, then went on to actually prove my point with your illustration.
    Novice Centurian favored over Marshal. That makes no sence at all.

    the (?) following a sentence signifys a question in the English language. not a statement. perhaps there is a language barrier here?

    If Wasington Highschool finishes their season with a better record then the Philadelphia Eagles... does that make them "Favored"?

    The titles and ranking are based on games-played. The total number of Honorpoints and nothing else. That much is completely obvious
    and true. And from that information alone, you can not discern who the better player is. The words don't make sence - therefore are meaningless.

    My suggestions where intended to be helpfull. They where in no way a deffense for any one character. Or to provoke an argument!

    Doc brought up a great point when referring to old 3D shooters in the days of Public servers. The Math is out there! I remember adding a PhP plugin to our website that pulled data from our CallofDuty server and listed player rankings in near-real-time. It wasn't perfect but it worked great. It even weeded out the players that only joined once, got 10 kills without dying then quit. By the standing they would have been #1 having never been killed. But the algorithm had a minimum number of games played to qualify for ranking and things like that worked in to help achieve a great estamation of who's who. Now i didn't write the math, i downloaded it... the wheel doesn't have to be invented... just implimented.

    The current ranking on PVP is setup to urge competative people to play more games - and that's it. That is NOT a skill competition... it's a race. The "Just play more so we make more money" attitude is transparent and disappointing.

    Autobalance kinda works sometimes in 5v5, but teams are often so lopsided that people just give up.
    If the ranking system was based on better math Autobalance would work much better... plain and simple;)
     
  20. kraken

    kraken Forum-Apprentice

    Hey there mate,

    So, regarding FS explode at desired location, I'm not sure it will work. I played games where there are spells working like that, but those spells have cooldowns, so this triggering works. In DSO, when you encounter a very large mob group, ie q1m1 circle, you spam like continuously the spell, which makes impossible to also trigger explosion. Triggering will make 2 clicks for the spell to work instead of 1. Why i asked for travel speed and impact time changes on FS respectively LS was because of bosses and PVP - moving targets, some of them having real high mobility. LS requires fixed target, FS requires fixed/slowly moving target and also requires constant reposition from the SW. Other classes have this; changing for SW will make SW stronger than it is atm; too strong...well, that's why I have said baby steps. Change it, see for a while how it works and adjust based on feedback, when it makes sense.

    Now, at point 2, not sure about SM, how turrets works, I haven't played that class, but I agree it is not burst, instead it works like a very good sustained damage. But SW also does not have burst, well it is there, but it requires fixed target, which in DSO is not really happening.

    And yes, new sets to buff unused skills it would be interesting. What about sets to buff 1H builds? Cause this is something I really hope it will become more viable in the near future.
     
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