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Development Team Letter - CLASS BALANCING

Discussion in 'Headquarters Archive' started by DSO Production Team, Nov 1, 2017.

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  1. Phyrix

    Phyrix Exceptional Talent

    It's simple really basically it is the description that is wrong
    MWS does 200% damage and being delivered at 50 to 57k on average it means it does not have 25% increased damage.
    Thus rageful swing and smash does 25% increased damage against currently bleeding foes.
    And yes bleed still does 50% more damage
    But now Doc how does this fit your theory on which set is better, because this surely changes things for the bear weapon.

    Tested the other skills do not deliver increased damage.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
  2. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    I never said it was needed a second click to trigger the explosion.
    C-14 Rocket doesn't need a second click.
    You put the cursor on the desired location, you click to fire, the rocket will be shooted in the selected location, will pass by any mob/opponent in the root, will explode once reached the aimed location (or against a wall).
    This is better than "explode on impact" because, most of the time, you aim first for the ranged mobs/opponents which are usually "covered" from a first line of melee mobs/opponents.
    The same goes when you fight a miniboss and you will try to aim for the miniboss before any trash mob in the first line and this way you can maximise the DMG on the real target and not some random trash mob that was passing by in the root.
    It will aso let you usethe talent that gives 50% dmg on mobs passed by the sphere (this means that if you aim correctly, you will hit your main target twice just like right now).

    This is where CCs should let a SW to have a "fixed target". There's an extreme "short duration" of CC on elite/champion mobs that I haven't seen in any other game. Another way to give more self suistanability to SWs would be to increase the effectivness of CCs on champs/elites (eventually add a diminishing return on the effectivness). In the boss fights, the ability to "dance around" the boss is what let to maximise the DMG (I supose most end-game mages used to do this) and I know this pretty well as a SM because the moment I run away from my turrets I bring my DMG to 0. There are some boss that are more static than others but this is another problem.
     
  3. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Well, it's my turn to test and provide methodology and documentation.

    Using an uncrafted, no gem, T3 Bear weapon I have lying around and my main belt, I conducted the following test:

    Damage: 6451-8639
    Crit Damage: +357.06, or x 4.5706

    I could generate this table with or without crits, but I've chosen with crits makes for wider rages and easier to detect hits that prove/disprove and because I have an 80% crit rate so that makes up for most of my hits.

    AttackExpected, No BleedObserved, No BleedCalculated without x1.25 BoostCalculated with x1.25 BoostObservation to prove/disprove
    Rage Attack14745-1974514764-1959114745-1974518431-2468114909, Proves it does not have x1.25
    Rage Swing14745-1974514763-1967514745-1974518431-2468123005, Proves it has x1.25
    Smash35388-4738835488-4712335388-4738844234-5923452125, Proves it has x1.25
    MWS29490-3949029894-3851229490-3949036863-4936229,908, Proves it does not have x1.25
    Charge14745-1974515751-1919314745-1974518431-2468116056, Proves it does not have x1.25
    Congrats, You didn't discover a hidden armor break; you discovered a bug/typo in the description.


    Regarding how this factors into set comparison, it doesn't really because the set comparison was going to be looking at smash as the primary damage source. If you are using Rage Swing instead of Smash, you are missing out on damage. Rage Swing should only be used when refreshing the bleed anyway, so it would have it's base damage any time it is used.
     
  4. emmaaxxx

    emmaaxxx Someday Author

    Hello there ,
    i've read almost all posts above and i find interesting this topic so i decided to make my first post here (but i play dso with a warior for 2 years).
    In this post i want to describe my point of view about class balancing in pvp (i wont include dwarfs in my analysis) answering in these specific questions below, that a lot ppl have:

    1] Why hp gems have diferent stats in each class ? (for exable Warior_hp gem > Archer_hp gem > Mage_hp gem), is it fair ?
    2] Why EA is so powerfull , when fireball does less dmg ?
    3] Are wariors the most overpower class in dso ? If no which is ?



    1] It's true that the hp gems are more beneficial for wariors when on mages are the worst. That seems quite unfair when the offencive gems (crit,dmg) are the same for all classes. But we must think all factors that makes this decision fair or not.
    The gear parts give much more ''armor'' stat than ''all resist'' (just a comparison between belt and torso can prove this easily). So mages in general have the advantage of dealing to wariors and archers much more dmg. This is unfair too, so a hp boost to wariors and archers from gems could balance in some point this dmg advantage that mages have over the other classes.
    But still, why wariors have greater hp gems from rangers? Warior is a class that must have greater hp from all other classes for 2 basic reasons :
    a) its the only melee class in the game , so the distance he have to cover in order to reach the other range classes makes him
    vulnerable to get hit first when he has to hit second.
    b) he must receive dmg in order to hit , mages and archers have their mana bar filled from start allowing them to hit first. So the mana that a warior miss from start is transfered as a hp boost. In other words ,
    Warior_HP + Warior_Mana = Ranger_HP + Ranger_Mana <=> (Warior_Mana = 0)
    Warior_HP = Ranger_HP + Ranger_Mana <=>
    Warior_HP > Ranger_HP

    I personally (being a warior) like to say " hit me to convert my extra hp to mana "


    2] EA is really powerfull , but again we must think all factors to decide if this skill is really op.
    a)EA costs more mana from fireball so it must deal more dmg . But, yes i agree it still does much more damage from this extra mana cost value.
    b)EA is less accurate than fireball, cause the "area" that EA occurs during its launch till reach its terminal point is smaller than fireball has.
    In simple words , fireball is more accurate cause its just bigger!

    So, these two disadvantages makes EA a " costly mana'' and a "hard to hit" skill comparing with fireball,
    meaning that, EA must deal really good dmg or it would be useless.
    So, its not an overpower skill .

    3]

    Wariors advanatges:
    they have the greatest surviveability (more hp , defence-hp boost skills , hp reg skill, immunity skill)
    they can fill their mana by receiving dmg ( yes this is advanatage , but need more hp, " hit me to convert my extra hp to mana ")
    good at close compact (a warior can kill easily a range class in small area place, for a lot of reasons that really need time to explain)

    Wariors disadvanatges:
    no range , no starting mana , no mana reg , not good ''remove stun'' skill (i ll explain)



    Archer advantages:
    Can hit from range, very good dodge ability (good ''remove stun'' skill , they have the greatest ''improve speed'' skill),
    mana reg, high damage skills

    Archer disadvantages:
    low hp, inaccurate skills, no hp reg skills, not good at close compact



    Mage advantages:
    Can hit from range, very good dodge ability (teleports skill), mana reg, can deal great dmg cause of low all resist stat value that all players have in average

    Mage disadvantages:
    They have the lowest hp, no hp reg skills, not good at close compact at all



    Wariors dont have good ''remove stun'' skill like archers and mages, cause warior's skill just remove stun without changing
    position, making him vulnerable to get hit even if he remove stun fast, cause fighting with a good range player he can still get hit before managing to move at all.

    A full tank mode warior with the hp reg skillis with uber end game gear is totally immortal especially in 1vs1 making him almost impossible to kill . Indeed, i say this even if im warrior but this is true and we cant say lies. But we must consider what an arena battle want to offer us. There are four arenas , 1v1 ,3v3 , 5v5 , 6v6 , lets consider if a full tank mode warior that is unbeatable in 1vs1 will be "first" in table list when match finish in 3v3 or 5v5 or 6v6 batle ,or he will be a uselles tank that cant deal dmg to make some kills and have fun , cause arena is more about having fun , and if u want to be immortal then u may lose all the action ( for exable killing 6 ppl at once is something that never an unbeatable tank in 1vs1 will manage to do).

    So the answer is , that no class is overpower , overpower is the class that makes u feel happy and have fun and fits on ur gamestyle, its all about what each person really wants, u want to be unbeatble in 1vs1? , u want to have the greatest score in other arenas ? u want to be the best flag carrier ? u want to smash opponents with aoe skills killing 5ppl at once ? u like range-sniper kills? u like to run around for time up ? and so on ...
    One is sure , that no class can do all .



    In conclusion this is a hard question to answer and need more analysis , i think no game is balanced , maybe a totally balanced game
    would be too boring :) .
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
    Vnaris, semen470 and Hetsunien like this.
  5. Alex_Thor

    Alex_Thor Active Author

    [​IMG]
    Here is your balance class: 1 warrior defeat all opposing team.
    How is possible: 31 - 0? :eek:
     
  6. Novadude

    Novadude Commander of the Forum

    It was possible in level 45 and 50 as well. And 6v6 is not the best format for this argument - the blue team is trying to kill the red team, but the red team is trying to damage the towers.
     
    Hetsunien and _Baragain_ like this.
  7. heror

    heror Forum Duke

    Allow me to melt your arguments , 2 years are nothing in terms of dso.

    So from the first part :"

    1] It's true that the hp gems are more beneficial for wariors when on mages are the worst. That seems quite unfair when the offencive gems (crit,dmg) are the same for all classes. But we must think all factors that makes this decision fair or not.
    The gear parts give much more ''armor'' stat than ''all resist'' (just a comparison between belt and torso can prove this easily). So mages in general have the advantage of dealing to wariors and archers much more dmg. This is unfair too, so a hp boost to wariors and archers from gems could balance in some point this dmg advantage that mages have over the other classes.
    But still, why wariors have greater hp gems from rangers? Warior is a class that must have greater hp from all other classes for 2 basic reasons :
    a) its the only melee class in the game , so the distance he have to cover in order to reach the other range classes makes him
    vulnerable to get hit first when he has to hit second.
    b) he must receive dmg in order to hit , mages and archers have their mana bar filled from start allowing them to hit first. So the mana that a warior miss from start is transfered as a hp boost. In other words ,
    Warior_HP + Warior_Mana = Ranger_HP + Ranger_Mana <=> (Warior_Mana = 0)
    Warior_HP = Ranger_HP + Ranger_Mana <=>
    Warior_HP > Ranger_HP ""

    All i see is uhh you know tanks are melle haha so we need much more hp but we dont want to be offended with being with less dmg so how about we f u up with the same dmg but we are just unkillable like w t f ppl do you even think outside your god damn class? The argument about tanks not having range is as old as the bible at this point its just overused and the points almost all tanks are maiking are just the same brainwashig stupidity, like range range range . Who needs range when you can spam 1 button and just DONT DIE


    Second : "
    Mage advantages:
    Can hit from range, very good dodge ability (teleports skill), mana reg, can deal great dmg cause of low all resist stat value that all players have in average"

    Dude wat the the same thinbg again RANGE RANGE RANGE . Dude Fireball deals 126% percent of the hp while magic missled deals 100 why is this skill op for everybody wat ?????? you have a 200 % swing x2 since they are 2 a wild swing which is AOD 100 percent and REDUCES MY DMG WITH 20 PERCENT and you have 175 dash , let me emphasise on this 175 INSTANT DASH and 150% jumo aoe??????
    but let me guess 126 firaball is op and totally not weak against 175 instant dash right ?The fact noone sees the % difference is triggering me right now.

    Third : I personally (being a warior) like to say " hit me to convert my extra hp to mana "
    Ye but by being hit 1 you get hp from the hammer weapon , 2 you get rage to cast the heal AND 3 TO DMG me why why why you get 3 things out of me trying to kill you why? I have to litterary run from you so i dont die but you get rewarded from being hit ? this concept is like being an atomic bomb in real life you need to hit the ground in order to kill all.

    Forth: "


    2] EA is really powerfull , but again we must think all factors to decide if this skill is really op.
    a)EA costs more mana from fireball so it must deal more dmg . But, yes i agree it still does much more damage from this extra mana cost value.
    b)EA is less accurate than fireball, cause the "area" that EA occurs during its launch till reach its terminal point is smaller than fireball has.
    In simple words , fireball is more accurate cause its just bigger!

    So, these two disadvantages makes EA a " costly mana'' and a "hard to hit" skill comparing with fireball,
    meaning that, EA must deal really good dmg or it would be useless.
    So, its not an overpower skill .



    Mage advantages:
    Can hit from range, very good dodge ability (teleports skill), mana reg, can deal great dmg cause of low all resist stat value that all players have in average"

    The fact you have low doesnt mean all have low in fact after lv 55 came its so easy to get above 60 percent with bad stone, With good items on 2h mage with Flawless gems you can get 62-65 percent . is that all that low ? 65 out of 80 is a solid 70 percent so it aint half boy you have a lot to learn about scaling , diminishing return and math graphics.
    And teleport is good for dodding ye but it doesnt allow 1SHOT KO FROM A MOOVEMENT SPELL. In other games tanks with a lot of mobility is busted and normally nerfed right away but why do we have this staying like ths for years ????


    Fifth and the last "
    So, these two disadvantages makes EA a " costly mana'' and a "hard to hit" skill comparing with fireball,
    meaning that, EA must deal really good dmg or it would be useless.
    So, its not an overpower skill ." Ye ea is ok but ahem fireball cost 30 mana and deal 126 Ea cost 66 and deals 500 so. 2 fireball cost 60 mana but deal 252 but 1 EA still deals more dmg and armor breaks you ....... heck even 3 balls arent 1 ea and 3x 126 = 378 1 EA = 500 So 1EA >3 Fireballs , im noth a math teacher but this is not okay if you want add filthy frank memes in here but no where is the balance i use more resource to hit the tank with the same dmg but since tanks have the godly busted hammer they gain more hp from being hit with multiple weak atack ???? At this point i give up.

    Conclusion: All tanks say UHH you know tank aint op you have range range range range and thats it , we on the other side have heal heal same dmg instant movement buff on low cd and aoe dmg instant dash, pffffff OP ? naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah that shit is ok just like 1939year right?
     
  8. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Thank you. I also remember a great many RAs and SWs doing this in 5v5 back when LVL 40 was the cap... and back then, a DK was lucky to get any kills.

    Metas Change.

    Dude, learn how to quote individual sections. That is a nightmare to read between your stuff and his stuff. It is really easy. Highlight what you want to quote from his post and only what you want to quote, and then click the little "reply" button that shows up and looks like this: [​IMG]

    I'm not going to waste my time reading something that you don't take the time to format in a readable fashion.

    P.S. You are going to "melt [his] arguments"? Really? You've been playing at least four years, but your posts haven't exactly made me think of you as an encyclopedia of all things DSO. There is also the fact that the opinions of reformed cheaters carry less weight with me, so pardon me if your posts usually only warrant a passing glance. Also, two years is plenty long enough to have an opinion about this game, so have a little bit of better manners when you are talking to someone just now venturing into the forums. This community is supposed to help in the sharing of ideas and when you are toxic and rude to someone who is new to the forums, you hurt the community instead of help it. If you notice, I'm only rude to people who deserve it and not someone brand new, simply offering up an opinion.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
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  9. Alex_Thor

    Alex_Thor Active Author

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Here another fresh matches. Where is mage? in as-s mage...
    killer-machine Valak (warrior) defeat all-around.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
  10. spyknight

    spyknight Forum-Greenhorn

    The thing that triggers me is why everyone is so upset about a game, its not real life, focus on other, more important stuff than this bs.

    Like I've seen some posts before, metas does indeed change, deal with it, if you guys think dk is op, wich I'm not saying right now, than alright, deal with it, I't won't stay the way like that, Bigpoint will for sure make changes in the (near) future to solve things like this and maybe we will see in a year all the dk's on the forum crying about mage being to strong? Maybe maybe maybe..
    Live your life, live and learn, thats all I can say, enjoy your class the way you want to play it. xo
     
  11. MikeyMetro

    MikeyMetro Forum Overlooker

    BLASPHEMY! Beware the wrath of the Gamerz Godz :eek:
    Really?

    I feel so much better now :rolleyes:

    Luck be with ye,
    Mikey,
    Tegan
     
    trakilaki and semen470 like this.
  12. Moot

    Moot Active Author

    @Alex_Thor

    One of my guildmates sent me this wonderful pic, there are your mages, and there is your balance lol.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Conqueror21

    Conqueror21 Forum-Apprentice

    I 'd like to share my opinion as well.I am new in this forum but I 've been playing drakensang approximately 6 years now and I'm surprised that PVP hasn't always been unbalanced. In the past healing potions and essences could be used in the arena but there was never such a problem.That's why I 'd like to make some suggestions as well.To begin with I think that the old fame tree should be returned.That's because it was what separated old players from new ones,not with just a +1% damage in the arena,but with actual talents.For example being immune for 4 seconds after a stun was an extremely powerful one.Another suggestion is to boost the 1h weapons so that the value of block rate is appreciated.Personally I don't really like using a 2h weapon in PVP.Surely you may kill many opponents easily but still...you are 1 shot for them too.Also I think that the 2handed bows should be removed(transformed to long bows).That would decrease ranger's damage but would restore their greatest advantage compared to the other classes(to my mind the fact that a ranger and a spellwaver can have the same damage is illogical.That's simply because rangers cause doubled damage to marked opponents).Even so transforming all 2h bows to longbows would not decrease the ranger's stats , instead by using quiver they 'd have more critical hit rate while using shield would increase their deffensive values and make them something more than just another damage class,making them unique again.Part of the unbalanced PVP's responsibility goes to dwarfs mechanical turets ,which are indestructible, and (to a great extent) to the constant use of q7 set by all classes(especially from spellwavers).As a spellwaver I don't think that this set is particularly strong;The buff is provided from meteor a skill that can be ''dodged'' even in PVE.The only thing that makes this set look powerful is that it allows spamming fireball unceasingly(useless in PVE , hits only a couple enemies at a time)and that it is for some reason associated with very good stats even though the majority of it's users don't have more than 10-12k damage.That's why I
    think it should be changed.It's bonus should be replaced by either something like a cool-down time reduction for meteor,or what you guys mentioned before about an exploding-fireball.Ofcourse that's just my personal opinion.
     
  14. emmaaxxx

    emmaaxxx Someday Author


    These type of replies will not lead to nowhere. I can post here mages or rangers that come first , u can do the same and so on ... But all these posts cant prove anything cause maybe this warior was just better from the other mages u post or he just came first in this match.

    If we want a more valued analysis for exable we should find the 10 best wariors , the 10 best mages and the 10 best archers and put them in thousands of battles between them in all arenas and then make some clues.

    (When i say the "best" i mean :
    - perfect gear with all runes maxed all gems maxed all stats gold
    - pro gameplay , meaning that these players will know to play their class perfect like a perfect pianist will do
    so these players will be equal for a fair comparison that only class variety will matter.
    )

    But still even if we find some results with this experiment we would have just found results for the maxed potential geared players.
    On the max gear state maybe one class was better from others ,so a medium gear state and low gear state similar experiment will be needed to be implemented too.
     
    semen470 likes this.
  15. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master

    What about something like this?



    1v1 top warrior vs top ranger...aka god vs crap ...should we thank BP for this or blame it on skills...items..and not regenerations and fail balance?

    Ive picked warrior vs ranger because the ranger is the only class that can match or kill ( close to kill a warrior right now ) and this is what we get.Fair AF right? 4-5 years playing a warrior gives u god status while 5 years playing other class gives u crap on a stick status ^^

    All regenerations must go in pvp except the knowledge one at least for the time being until we get to test how its with and without it.As it is right now this game became TANKensang for the past year.

    If the fate of all manking would be in BPs hands we would be extinct by now..cuz ...BP xD..500% dmg EA = crap vs top 1hand tanks and ppl complain that EA is OP...what should the mages say when they fight with 126% dmg fireballs then?
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
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  16. Moot

    Moot Active Author

    And where is the top ranger? He missed most of his EAs at point blank range, yet he was close to 1shotting a tank multiple times.. if that video proves anything it's
    1.: EA could use a good old fashioned hit with the nerfhammer
    2.: Due to the infinite kiting the ranger did during his EA downtime, the healing is completely justified for the melee class.

    Quit whining.. it's clear you don't want balance, you want a pinata who can't catch you, can't reach you with it's attacks, can't do serious damage even if somehow reaches you, and explodes from one hit so you can feel pro.
     
  17. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master

    Same should happen with the regeneration...nerf the crap out of it until it wont make the difference between winning and losing .

    Really? You dont think that the regeneration gave the opponent 0 chances of winning ?

    How many rangers can kill u Moot on your server? What about SWs and dwarfs? 1v1 i mean ofc.Just curious.Ive asked u this above but u havent replied maybe because the reply would show how op your class was, so ill ask again now.How many? U being with 1hand ofc....

    When i mean "kill u " i dont really mean winning vs u by luck 1 time every 100 rounds...What i mean is having 50-50 chances of winning or more.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
  18. Moot

    Moot Active Author

    I still can't believe how people can't understand how taking away regen from a MELEE class would be about as big of a handicap as making ranged classes stationary. It would not be balance, it would just make dk unplayable in pvp.

    The RA had all the chances in the world hitting 50k EAs into someone with capped armor mitigation and block, but he blew it when he missed the shots even from melee range...

    And I'm sorry mate, but that question is impossible to answer, since I would have to play quite a few duels to face everyone on grimmag, and be able to collect the data and objectively tell how many of them can put me down.. I'm pretty sure it would be a lot though.
     
  19. Fugnuts

    Fugnuts Forum Master

    Well as it is right now it is making the DK unkillable. Increasing the dmg for the other classes to make them able to kill a DK will only make a bigger mess when the other classes will meet in duels so i doubt this will help.The problem lies within the regenerations.Adding a cooldown to the Battle frenzy skill, a 2 -3 min cooldown to the Superhuman regeneration instead of 1 min or lowering the hp that is restored by using these 2 skills is a must.

    I know u dont agree because u will lose the godlike status but as it is right now it gives exactly 0 chances from the start for the other classes when they fight duels vs DKs.Its bad enough that on some servers pvp rarely starts...meeting a dk in a duel and not being able to kill it not because u dont have the tools to do it, but because BP decided to make this class immortal is a bit much.


    When is the patch 208 supposed to be on TS btw? The newest CM said it should be there in 2-3 weeks max.
     
  20. cdeepal

    cdeepal Forum Baron

    Holy crap! This video proves only one thing, that if this is the top DK on your server, then how much Life points they have, how much defense they have, nothing matters. A top Ranger can simply 2 hit kill him, if the DK made a single mistake he would have been dead easy.

    However, I agree that Life Regen was a bit too much.
    I believe, it should be reduced a bit only for PvP though. Perhaps instead of 10% heal, it could be reduced to 5% Life.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
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