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Dks and their woes in 2019 and a set that will fix it for them

Discussion in 'General Forum' started by Phyrix, Sep 12, 2019.

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  1. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Padavan

    [​IMG]

    comparing
    lv 40 DK, 1h with shield with 240% Smash
    to
    lv 45 SW, emilia weapon with 666% LS

    the best thing is that SWs video is sped up and videos are almost exact same length :D:D:D
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
    EmilyRose likes this.
  2. Ворон_Одина

    Ворон_Одина Forum-Apprentice

    It is an established fact that for buff Herald-the limit is set at a speed of 2.8571. No matter how you pick up the speed up - you still will not cause more than 17 strokes in 3 seconds.

    You offer use the runes on lowering value of rage (4*5=20%). But then you get huge HP out of your hands. And your HP becomes even less. Approximately 20,000 HP. Instead of 180-184k HP, you will run with 150-160 HP. And this is very risky on some bosses and very uncomfortable because you can die from one missed kick. So the runes on lowering rage-not option for DKS.

    Good. Let's say I solve the rage problem with rage bottles. But to withstand strikes boss I need many HP, and so buff on rage (+100 rage) I not will be able use. Only HP or only block chance. Otherwise death with one strike.

    I can Dodge, but then who will do the damage? Wait for the scales and the flag? But it's only 10 seconds. of 30-45 sec. expectations.DKS can't evade attacks of the boss - only the most strong impact, it needs to keep hitting and hitting, otherwise it will damage sliding even more down.



    If DKS are weak on HP, it may occur that such unpleasant things as in the video above.

    Now imagine DKS, which is not 200k. HP, and 150-160K. What will he look like in this battle? And DKS don't use a protective set of Dragan - the only salvation is to use a buff on HP and not on rage, as you suggest.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
    1vanka and Hiro73 like this.
  3. kuwabaraz

    kuwabaraz Active Author

    They are videos made at different times and it was only to close the controversy between classes!

    In reality, no one asks you to take anything away from the other classes, only to settle this situation!


    Let's start with why the DK class does so much crap! if not we just take it around with the changes made by r214 now!

    Maybe it was just a problem of damage but it also extends to other things, survival by bosses, unique sets and even skills!

    The pvp I say a little to everyone has become a thing for about 500 users who play with regularity the rest does everything to not enter it!

    At this moment I would like at least the pve to be balanced!
     
  4. DBS-Flamelurker

    DBS-Flamelurker Padavan

    Are you dodging like the other classes even with perma-guardian? Not only DK, even Ranger are laughing.

    The other classes are getting resources while dodging, DK loses resources.

    Basic Drakensang lessons.
     
    kuwabaraz likes this.
  5. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Duke

    without the need for maths your logic makes absolutely no sense
    Let me show you.
    right here. you say this right.
    and this would make perfect sense
    But then you say this
    and you are aware of the video where the mage just uses his guardian and shares his singularity with arachna and not moving an inch
    so potion spam is very easy if your a stationary ranged dps.
    but dks can only spam if they have dragan defensive and even then its not needed because they use ra for cooldown and once again when in banner and dragon hide they once again dont need to spam pots.
    the problem lies not in the spamming pots, it lies in when we should use them?
    when we are running around like maniacs or when we are in banner of war?
    EDIT:
    I have considered requesting cooldown per crit or per every 3rd crit on rageful swing so that it makes q4 more of a q7 equal or maybe 0.3 seconds per crit with rageful swing or somthing just something anything.
    Buut that set of mine is pretty cool too.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
    DBS-Flamelurker likes this.
  6. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Padavan

    Idk why you act like Im the enemy while I actually agreed countless times that PvE DKs need a slight buff.

    I even suggested one:

    "DK Q7 buff

    - '30% increased Smash damage during Q7 buff' as additional 2/2 bonus

    Smash from 240% (200 * (1 + 0,2)) to 300% (200 * (1 + 0,2 + 0,3)) during q7
    - Smash perks change - 2 pts and 3 pts swapped
    - 6 rage per finishing blow --> 5 rage per critical hit.
    - Smash damage gradient removed."


    Im just trying to make you understand that you ask for too much considering what you can already do (I even read about 400% BASE SMASH which would annihilate PvP "balance").

    First of all stop with the arachna - this is one of the hardest hitting bosses due to attack speed and poison which is shredding % max hp.

    You cant just use one boss as an example of "how hard is it".
    On contrary Heredur attacks are not only slow, easily dodgeable but he deals much less damage.
    You can nullify the effect of icy explosions with dragon hide - something other classes have to dodge while losing time.

    THIS is why you were told that you cant just look at one scenario and draw conclusions but you refuse to acknowledge that not just once but many, many times already.
    That's why Im saying you try so hard to advocate for the entirety of DK community while ... writing this.

    Even if DKs "need" defensive dragan they "need" it as much as SWs need Bloodmoon weapon - it's the endgame thing and you can be effective (to some extent) without it.

    I just love the irony - when it's SWs that have options, different build paths it's a pro but when DK can build either Karabossa or defensive Dragan it's a con cause ???. It's just logical that defensive Dragan synergizes better on a class that is getting damaged unlike a class that dies to boss sneeze.

    There are some class specific nieches that must be respected - SWs use this, RAs use this, DKs use this, SMs use this. What you want to achieve is cookie cutter build for everybody which not only dumbs down the game but makes "clone army" issue even more noticable (as it isn't noticable already ...).

    Balance got ruined cause of regen resource pots, resource buffs and then changing pots from 10s to 1s.

    Before that SWs were last (with DKs dealing more damage than SWs) and a slight SW PvE buff would be enough to make DK, SW and RA fairly balanced. Yes, DKs dealt more damage than SWs in 160 mana world - whoever says DK was "worst" dps class must've missed DK+SM era with ocassional RA (entirety of 50 and most of the 55) where SWs were completely neglected cause singu on farm was entirely unnecessary.

    I explained countless times why DKs were good and fairly balanced on lv 40, godlike on lv 45 then average on lv 50 and less than average on lv 55 - DK as a class lagged behind - with lv 50 you couldve gotten another new and useful dps skill and what you got instead was ... taunt with healing. And then people wonder why Im saying that DKs were designed to actually tank.

    We're in the era where everything is soloable, groups doesnt matter at all (or rare ocassions), and what matters is how much dps you can pump out - defensive stats are irrelevant for 3/4 of the population of DSO and that's the issue.

    The reason everything is so messed up is because people refuse to understand that "everything is soloable" logic is hurtful to the game in the long run - 2h DKs should require a tank as well as every other DPS class but not only DKs should be allowed to tank - hybrid tank RA or Guardian tank SW would be cool builds as well but you cant do that in the game where solo and group play is not only separate but solo outweights group cause while being a tank you struggle with playing solo. THIS is what has to be addressed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  7. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Duke

    I knew you came to the forum with this idea of yours.
    You do this to anger me bacause I will lose my precious q4 set.
    But I wont, because if dks get this on q7 every other class will want a buff on their q7 too, including mages.
    As for the rage per crit it will not really work either, let me explain.
    Yes we will have rage for smash you could then just as well make smash not cost rage, it will be the same...
    But for scanario sake lets say we get rage per crit per smash, it wont work on bosses.
    Because we are once again busy either dodging or doing cooldown.
    As for the 30% smash damage with q7.
    I can even tell you, dks like ari says its not that much of a buff since they get it when I use q4
    And funny enough all this would bring us right back to the armor break rune I suggested months ago.
    and once again it does not even have to be q7 bound
    It could be 25-30% smash damage from a cloak, conditional like for example only during banner of war or hitting a for with grounbreaker increases smash damage by 30%
    the list of options is literally endless.
    You however chose q7 as an example to further separitism between those whom use q7 and those who dont.
    Once again I say the solution to the dk problem would be my set.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Personally rak I think you fear this set
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  8. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Padavan

    RA and SM dont deserve Q7 buffs.
    SW deserves Q7 buff only when its made fireball only.
    And regarding DKs - majority of them use Q7 and when it comes to fixing or addressing something quickly with little effort that's what can be done without harming DKs or overbuffing them on PvP. This is the most time/results effective thing that can be done to help DKs on PvE - it's not my fault you refuse to use BiS items [EDIT]
    How can you even say it's "not that much" when it's 360% dps increase, from 1440 to 1800 during Q7 (+ 150% which SWs dont have on bloodmoon weapon).
    In reality, DKs smash on Q7 would be (after that change) 390% per smash 6 times a second while SW deals 410% per FS 3.5/4 times a second.
    DK during full Q7 would deal 2340% but with some (about 1-1,5s) down time and SW deals steady 1435% - 1640%.

    So you use q7, reset it, use q7 and reset it. That's 9s of dps.

    (2x3x2340% + 3x500) / 9 = 1727% dps while SW dps is somewhere between 1435% and 1640%.

    This is enough to make Q7 DK boss kills much much quicker and definitely enough of a PvE buff.
     
    Last edited by moderator: Sep 18, 2019
  9. DBS-Flamelurker

    DBS-Flamelurker Padavan

    Sorry, but I'm a little tired. Dodging is a natural game of SM, Ranger and Mage, not DK. Resources is the main reason.

    I never suggested 400% damage on Smah.
    My suggestion was 300% base dmg on Smash and Wild swing. But your suggestion is better, I like it.

    For these reasons:

    - better AoE
    - less dependence on banners to do damage
    - does not make OP DK. As it's designed, it's easy to make DK too strong or too weak.

    No problem for me, I use Q7. But I have a proposal for Q4 users: remove "30% increased Smash damage during Q7 buff 'as additional 2/2 bonus" and change talent 20% damage on Smash in 50%.

    But I can understand you want to make Q7 DK better, without making DK better one day that will nerf all Q7s.
    But your suggestion is one of the best I've read.
     
  10. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Duke

    in all this you forget your favorite word
    Damage mitigation, and here lies the problem with damage mitigation, the combination of it and the hp of mobs is a lot, as in a loooot.
    Sws work with resistances which is lower than armor on mobs and sentinels and select bosses its lower too, which is why in most cases you revert to an attack that the foe is weak against.
    Not wishing to grant or deny sws anything but if said fb gets boosted more it means you have an attackfor every boss in the game with much lower mitigation than the physical classes.
    Then again here lies another problem, you consider it as a big boost but how much of a boost is it vs the armor shred from automated turrets? how much is it from armor shred from explosive arrow?
    When you realize and I have mentioned this months ago, that the damage mitigation is what is a problem for dks then you will realize boosting smash on a set is like throwing a glass of water at a bush fire.
    And in all this you will say but use armor break, even though it will be separate for us.
    Then you will point out that the armor break for mages is separate too but in the same sentence you will also note that its on a skill you used to use before r220.
    Now giving 80% armor break to smash is kinda too OP anyways.
    I proposed a rune all those months ago remember?

    [​IMG]

    Which is something you will once again oppose and will leave dks as is in the end.
    After all this you will once again refuse my set being an option because it will work so great for dks as a whole.
    And the answer is yes I do believe that even end gamers will use it:
    1 its something new.
    2 it can improve their kill times
    3 its more uptime of banner and of dragon hide
    4 its fun farming
    5 its worth it.
     
    Last edited by moderator: Sep 18, 2019
  11. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Padavan

    This alone breaks PvP DK which is why Im avoiding touching anything in experience tree (the only change is rage per kill to rage per crit cause rage per kill is absolutely useless).
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  12. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Duke

    well if they do that then they could just aswell update q4 with either my buff or add 50% smash damage as the 2 pieces bonus and while they are at it correct the set bonus wording and make it 50% rs damage too
    this in itself will boost q4 enough to be viable to some extent
    and will boost q7 to a reasonable extent I guess
    they are reworking sets so.
    lemme show ya
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  13. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Padavan

    It's not. Resistances are exactly the same for neutral enemies but there are 2 additional states - resistant and vulnerable.

    I was testing that yesterday:

    Phase 1 mitigation (armor): 65,82
    Phase 2+ mitigation (armor): 71,02

    Phase 1 mitigation (vulnerable): 49,04
    Phase 2+ mitigation (vulnerable): 55,06

    Phase 1 mitigation (neutral): 63,64
    Phase 2+ mitigation (neutral): 69,46

    Phase 1 mitigation (resistant): 77,77
    Phase 2+ mitigation (resistant): 80,00

    Difference between armor and neutral resistance is there only cause of the roundings (it's boss mitigation) - on maps mitigation is 60% armor, 43% vulnerable, 60% neutral, 75% resistant.

    It's not fireball but Q7 change.

    Q7 users wouldn't be able to utilize LS effectively.
    Bloodmage users are universal (but base, nonQ7 FB is so weak that even FS is better vs ice than fireball).
    Q4 users cant utilize FB effectively.

    This is something you keep purposefully ignoring. Each SW set is bound to one of the skills (Q7 [should be] FB, Q4 LS and BM FS).
    FS is universal for all sets since not a single set buffs FS.

    You have mitigation reduction as well which you can keep up permanently during the second phase.
    Mitigation reduction is separate for SW as well as you already said. Don't act like using Iron Brow in between your rotations is a big deal - it's not and I know that.

    Yes, SWs were using singu but not on the boss but themselves - also if you weren't using mitigation reduction before R220 you are trolling, sorry not sorry.
     
  14. DBS-Flamelurker

    DBS-Flamelurker Padavan

    Ok, the main reason is pvp. Now I understand why you put damage buffs on Q7.

    Your proposal is fine for me, it will improve DK in pve without touching pvp.
     
    anderson92acs likes this.
  15. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Baron

    And here I still wonder what would happen if they enabled attack speed dependence of the attack skills... and how would it work with this:
    You see, my proposed change would work with Q4 better than with Q7... both could be implemented theoretically, then we could nerf Q7 for all the classes (give cooldown to buff and make it last the same time for everyone).
     
  16. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Duke

    As said by a mage that knows q7 buff for mages is 9 seconds.
    Anyways it is clear you choose q7 only and even ignore my q4 proposals because you do not wish to see someone like me in DSO as a whole.
    That said thats okay :D
    [EDIT]
    Thats 2 dks at your hands and so the count continues
     
    Last edited by moderator: Sep 18, 2019
  17. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Padavan

    Sadly this wont be happening (either at all or anytime soon) which is why I retcon on my own words and want to buff DK Q7 as "professional Q7 hater".
    Once again, ignoring everything that's inconvenient for you. I'll just cut out so you can actually process what I said without issues:
    If you make Q7 FB only then it deserves buff cause FS or LS cant be used effectively with it - it's simple and you not being able to comprehend that is ... sad.

    Respectable DKs use (or at least are on their way) the best possible builds which is why I, somebody who despises Q7 as a whole, proposed Q7 buff cause it affects the huge majority of DK playerbase. If I wouldn't have to take PvP into consideration I'd propose DK class buff not just one particular itemset that's being abused.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  18. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Duke

    Should be able to use any set and be top just like mages, same goes for the other classes...
     
  19. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Padavan

    They would be if we wouldn't have resource tonic, resource physic, resource regen pots and 1s pots on top of that.

    [​IMG]

    Btw, SWs arent "top" cause of sets - they are "top" cause of things mentioned above - about time to finally understand that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  20. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Duke

    buldust.
    Mages were top before 1 second potions
    We already had this discussion
    Btw, your view on dks that they are tanks and supposed to be tanks and slower, you do realize their resources is berserker style based.
     

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