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Feedback Dwarf: Q7+Q8 combo

Discussion in 'Steam Mechanicus' started by ΣMiwel, Jan 8, 2019.

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  1. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Duke

    This is not supposed to be another class rant. I'm attempting to provide some elaborate arguments on why the SM class is unbalanced and how it is harming all of the players (including the dwarf ones!).

    So, first of all, let's think for a moment what does the discussed combo give the player.

    The q8 set triples the damage of the mechanical turret.
    The mechanical turret without the set shoots 16 times over the course of 10 seconds, regardless of the player attack speed, dealing (with 2p. talent) 110% base damage per shot. Now, it's an average of 176% of base damage per second. With the tripling, it's 528% base damage per second... and you can have two turrets active with the 3p. talent at a time. It means that SM with the q8 talent deals 1056% of base damage to bosses every second, with the turrets only!
    And here's where the q7 set comes into play. The buff, which lasts 3 seconds and is triggered by the Rocket, which has cooldown of 30s, lasts simply infinetly with the 5p. talent of the MT for such a dwarf. Let's proof it mathematically: 3[seconds passed]*3[bolts per shot]*1,6[shots per second]=14,4 bolts that hit the boss in three seconds from just one turret. Now, double it, and we have over 28 bolts shot by the turrets. Since each bolt is -1 on all cooldowns... Yep. That's it. 3 seconds have passed (so -3) and the cooldown is done and over. Of course, you can't stay in place all the time... but in fact the quick-spam of the special shot that can be done while on the buff is just an additional (yet also very strong, it's 306% of base damage per shot with insane attack speed and the cooldown removed) source of damage.
    To make it short - killing a boss as a q7+q8 dwarf looks something like this:
    1. Enter the boss room.
    2. Wait for the boss to spawn.
    3. Shoot the Rocket.
    4. Place two mechanical turrets.
    5. Shoot some quick shots.
    6. Shoot another rocket.
    7. Shoot some heavy shots.
    8. Repeat the steps 5 and 6 two more times.
    9. Go back to step 3 until the boss is dead.
    Of course, if you haven't got a tank in your group, and aren't strong enough yourself to tank the boss (which you probably aren't if this is a high mode), you aren't shooting many heavy shots or even rockets in between and keep running around (just staying in the turret not-dismantle area), stopping just to replace the turrets.

    Now, which other set/set combo provides over 1k% base damage per second with the base damage increased by 150%? Which other class has such a power?

    Let's take a q7 ranger as an example.
    EA deals 500% base damage to marked foes. Now, with high enough attack speed, one can shoot 2 (or even slightly more) EAs per second. However, the buff that allows free spam of it lasts only for 2 seconds and it takes luck (5p. talent) to be able to repeat that right after it's over. I could make the statistical calculation with the chance mentioned in the talent description... but I'm well afraid I could make a mistake (maybe the Math Guru could lend me a hand?). On top of that, you don't deal any damage when you are fleeing or avoiding hits. And on top of that all, it's as well a single broken set of the class... which still isn't able to overpass the almighty midget.

    Let's take a q4 mage as well.
    LS of such a mage deals at most 550% base damage to an electrified boss (counting in the afterglow explosion from the 5p. talent). How many you can use until your mana is over? With basic mana, it would be 2 with the 2p. talent. Let's say one has 200 mana and 20% cost reduction from q5 pauldrons and 5 t1 runes... it's 5. Then TP, another 5. With good attack speed... but wait. You're dead already by that time. So, let's suppose one uses an LS at the boss, moves for a second, uses another one... This way, since SW regens 13 mana every second, it's, throwing in some occasional magic missles, 8 LS until mana runs out. By that time, provided you have a CD reduction, you can use a TP (provided you used it at the begin of the discussed cycle). It's by average 527% base damage per second (counted in 3 magic missles, TP cd cycle of 9s - 3 runes - and LS as described before). And it's with well-advanced rune as well... and without the 150% buff to base damage. If you look back, it's somehow EXACTLY the half of the dwarf damage from just the turrets, where a dwarf has also himself to shoot and he as well as the turrets are empowered by the additional 150% to his base damage.

    And once again I'm calling for help to _Baragain_, since I have not enough experience with dmg DK to make such a detailed comparison for that.

    Please voice your opinion and maybe add some important insights that I might have somehow overlooked.
    michlong3 and menestrelul like this.
  2. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    I've often said that SMs are broken strong. Your analysis doesn't account for the fact that a SM with enough steam could also get at least one Machine Gun turret into the rotation too, and at the 150% buffed damage too. Also, the requirements to implement the SM build you talked about are really low. You just need the two sets. Sure, your damage might be higher or lower based on your other stats, but your rotation (and the %of Base Damage) is only based on the set bonuses. On the other hand, I'm going to try to provide the best DK build I can below and it is highly dependent on several high-ish runes and a crit rate that is beyond all but the strongest DKs.

    But, for the sake of comparison;
    A DK can use the Herald set also. For the sake of argument, I'll come up with a best case build and make a bunch of assumptions.
    This build is assumed to have 80% crit rate, and 22.5% cool down reduction from runes (5*4.5% reduction runes, absolute best would be 5x6% reduction runes, but that is super expensive). Assuming you start at the 2.667 attack sppeed break point, you'll be hitting about 12 Smashes in those 3 seconds (experimentally determined), so an average of 4 hits per second. Also, because I'm trying to include all the damage I'm doing, I'll break down how much of the damage is subject to the buff. In my case, the +150% damage only boosts my damage by about 30% (only 20% if I'm using reds).
    That brings the cool down for Banner of War down to 46.5 seconds and Ground breaker down to 7.75 seconds.

    1. Open with Banner of War
    2. Ground Breaker (100%)
    3a. Smash until the Herald buff ends. Each smash does 240% and you get 12, so an average of 960% damage per second, or 2880% total.
    3b. You have about 6.5 seconds left to Banner of War, Ground breaker has cooled down 3 of 7.75 seconds
    4. In two seconds, you can hit about 5 Rage attacks with the 5 point skill and on average, with an 80% crit rate, 4 of those will be crits. (500% damage) This reduces the cool down on Ground Breaker to 0.75 seconds. Banner of War has 4.5 seconds left.
    5. Use Furry of the Dragon for some extra DPS. (150% per second, 600% total)
    6. Ground Breaker (100%)
    7. Smash until the Herald buff ends. Each smash does 240% and you get 12, so an average of 960% damage per second, or 2880% total.
    8a. Buff ends. Use one more Furry of the Dragon before Banner of War expires. (150% per second, 600% total)
    8b. Ground breaker has cooled down to about 4 seconds remaining, Banner of War's cool down should be at about 32 seconds. The next 32 seconds is all about getting in some supplementary damage while also dropping Banner of War's cool down so the rotation can repeat.
    9. 3 seconds of Rage Attack gets you to a cooled down Ground breaker and Banner is down to 28 seconds. (400%)
    10. Ground Breaker (100%)
    11a. Assuming that you aren't getting hit too much during this phase (like against a boss), you'll likely only get in 5 Smashes before depleting the rage you have built up. (1200%) and you'll finish out with a couple rage attacks and maybe one more smash. (440%)
    11b. Assuming at least one of the rage attacks was a crit, cool downs are now about 3.5 and 24 seconds
    9-11 totals about 8 seconds of cool down on Banner of War while providing a total of 500%/1640% damage, all in about 5 seconds, so we repeat this process three times and then start over at 1.

    This gives us a total of about 3900% damage that is not benefitting from the buff and 12320% that is benefiting from the buff, and this takes about 30 seconds, so the average (not accounting for the 1.3x multiplier for the buffed damage) is 540% per second. That said, if you just consider the burst damage when Banner of War is up, you are looking at about 696% per second... still a far cry from a mech's capability.

    And you know what? I'm ok wih that. A DK is supposed to be a tank. I'm simply happy enough that I can put out enough damage that I can solo in a reasonable fashion. I rationalize this by recognizing that I have way higher defenses and HP regen options that the other classes don't have.

    That said, a SW should be able to do more DPS than a SM on account of their class being the class that should have the most damage (according to the Devs) and the RA's should be able to do about the same damage as a SM.
    michlong3, ΣMiwel and DamarèRo like this.
  3. DamarèRo

    DamarèRo Junior Expert

    If we speak about sets and dmg, why ranger don't get back 3sec on q7 set, this set was nerf when ppl cry in arena but now the arena is gearless, i like pve and that q7 set with 3sec will be great ;) no one now can cry if ranger get it back bcs count only in pve !!
    I am not sure but dwarf and war have 3sec on q7 so this is not fair. Thx.
    michlong3 likes this.
  4. menestrelul

    menestrelul Forum-Apprentice

    I would like to add something about skill efficiency
    LS ( Lightning Strike)and FS (Frozen Sphere) are only effective for a fixed target.
    When the target is moving LS has very low chances to succeed, even FS escapes in many cases due to very slow velocities of the projectiles.
    From the moment you select the target and the projectiles start up to their explosion in the selected place it takes too long.
    Most of the time the target moves and the projectiles (FS) explode behind the target that advances to me or to a comrade in the group.
    Boss like Heredur, Herald, Mortis, Bearach, Arahna, and Destructor often put the precision problem.
    I have a few years of experience on this game and I've learned to anticipate the monster movement, but even so I miss some blows because of the skills.
    In my opinion, FS needs more attack speed (velocity) and Lightning Explosion (5-point talent) needs a simultaneous or immediate explosion with Lighting Strike and the electric shock needs to persists for another 3 seconds.
    Now it explodes 3 seconds after the impact.

    I think that the aspect of skill efficiency is not just the damage done.
  5. OrochimaruSama

    OrochimaruSama Forum-Apprentice

    Calculations that do not take into account the probabilities of critical damage are not very suitable for analyzing a situation, an example of this is because the dwarves do not use the 3p heavy-shoot skill.
  6. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Duke

    Not suitable? Oh wait, I forgot that dwarfs have a permament critical hit rate debuff...

    Now seriously, don't speak at all if you have no idea what to say. Critical hit rate has no impact on these calculations, since we're assuming all the compared classes with the same stats, so the crit rate is the same. That's why we are compaing the percentage of base damage, which is the most relevant class damage output indicator, since there is no difference in what stats the classes can achieve (please don't say about that character base damage... those differences are laughable, and have nothing to do with crits anyways).
    Now, someone explain to me, what does this have to do with crits and the whole topic?
    That's a whole different topic... I assumed everything hits perfectly, assumed some additional stats that dwarf doesn't need for that (mana, cooldown reduction... even the attack speed, from which the turrets are independent, so the dwarf char can have it way lower with the same crit and dmg), and yet still the dmg output of the SW was less than a half (!) than that of the SM. Sorry, but, as _Baragain_ said:
    SW should have the most damage of all the classes in exchange for lower defences and lack of proper healing.
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  7. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    500% on Ls with q4 and update base 250--> when electrified goest to 325 + the set 75% + 100%(5 points talent) so aka 1 EA

    And the only problem with mages is if the boses is
    1)moving so LS misses ofc
    2) ice resistant so you cant use ice sphere
    For instance karabossa is moving ice boss and i cna use only LS otherwise -50% dmg its a real struggle and dps goes down by 50% so depending on the boss mage may be pretty much useless if you dont know how to hande it

    Also on the question how many LS i can use 5 witout the 100 mana with it 8-9 smt like this and if im with smb in group i have reached 11
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  8. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Duke

    You are missing the increased damage to electrified foes from Q4 weapon (50% instead of 33%). It's 375% + 75% (set) + 100% = 550%.
  9. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    ye my bad i forgot 125+ 250 wasnt 325 XD but 375
  10. MikeyMetro

    MikeyMetro Forum Overlooker

    I rarely comment on threads about SM's since I do not play that class. I'm still not going to :p but I'm going to chance an off-topic to respond to this because I see this all too often:
    Nonsense. SW has always been my go-to 2nd class and I use LS a lot. Since the beginning of this game (yes, I have played almost that long ;)) LS has required skill. The idea is to drop it where the target is going to be... not where it is. Just like irl when I shoot at a moving person (err... umm... I mean like if I were to shoot at a moving person :oops:)

    Back on-topic (sort of), one of the main reasons I have not played SM since the dwarf rally is that I have always seen it as a rather skillless class.
  11. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    You can just stop there. Your post demonstrates that you have zero clue what we are talking about. Come back once you figure out what we're discussing.

    Assuming similar base stats, the math above demonstrates that a SM will always out-damage all the other classes.

    Now, allow me to address another topic that I don't feel was adequately explored. Skill efficiency was touched on, but that was talking about the likelihood of hitting the target. However, while the SM is the unquestionable king of single target DPS, the same skill rotation will not be so efficient against multiple targets, and a more AoE oriented skill rotation won't have the same cool down reduction. However, a SW, RA, and DK's Herald set all rely on AoE attacks. If you are considering total damage output under AoE conditions, a RA, SW, or DK will likely approach or surpass the efficiency of a SM.

    I'm not to keen on doing that math right now, but this problem becomes much more complicated and depends on things like mob positioning, crowd control skills, movement, etc.
  12. bezryl

    bezryl Active Author

    as a dwarf some of my opinions for yal to consider and i dont mean an *alt* character you leveld up and dont play often i mean my main character

    on bosses dwarfs will 100% out dps any other class if they can set up turets and get things going(with tank very easy) and assuming they are close in stats

    here is a nagative, using q7+q8 we have skills that get 0 use...tactical turet oil bombs and even tesla and machine gun are unused most of the time, oh cant forget useless iron dwarf.

    this makes dwarfs get boring to play after soo long of it and its the reason im lvling a mage atm

    so dwarfs are king on bosses, what about clearing maps wich is most of the content you are doing...the king here is....mage and ranger by FAR, dwarfs can clear maps just fine but mage and rangers do it faster

    i play with a group of friends and we are very close in stats now in maps this happens most of the time, we go to a group of mobs and they are dead before i get to deploy my turets, mage and rangers main used skills frozen sphere and exsplosive arrow are almost instant and hit many monsters at once

    incase you didnt realise mechanical turet is SINGLE target meaning they are hittin 2 at a time only while a mage and ranger can hit MANY at a time, and they dont have to set up turets as well they just push button and things melt

    so dwarfs are better at boss dps and soloing some bosses imo with mechanical turets but are worse on clearing maps. here is what happens if they take q8 or q7 away, we just go back to mahcine guns and tesla wich still do the job just fine and will still out dps others on boss

    anyone who mains a dwarf will probally have noticed the things ive mentioned but here is a key fact id like people to not forget, are you playing with someone who is stronger than u or weaker? if i play as a dwarf with a mage or ranger who is stronger then i am it is very frustrating because all i can do is pick up loot because things are dead before i have a chance to fight

    things might sound *op* or *broken* on paper or in the numbers but in actual gameplay is it so? lets use some numbers as an example lets say dwarfs dps is 10 on 2+1(quick shot) mobs max(when not using heavy shot) and mage and rangers is 5 but they are hiting 10 mobs(sometimes more) and they are hitting them instantly, who wins?
    leopardxxl, lovatic66 and Bundin like this.
  13. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    Your point has no point (no pun intended ) but even with a build like mine which focus on spaming as much ice pheres as possible i have seen dwarfs who farm at equal speed, though my dmg is 8k+ above theirs , this just makes 60% if your argument invalid.
  14. Jakeybear

    Jakeybear Forum-Apprentice

    This is one of the most ridiculous claims I have ever read. Player issue, not a class balance issue.
  15. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    not a player issue that what im saying, stonekeep inf 3 for 2 minuts is what i can do and the dwarf i was with 2min and +5-10 sec
  16. Purgerzg

    Purgerzg Active Author

    So,did you calculate 1 sec cooldown for every turret cast? Did you calculate Mechanical turret attack on boss while they attack some random monster? Did you calculate that you can not spam q7 on boss (even with tank is hard) And in pratice farm look like this:SM throw turrets,they do not even shot once SW/RA clear all.And on boss,SM throw turrets,SW/RA drop 1/3 of HP while turrets start shooting.And DK do not need anybody for farm,can do any boss without ess/heal potion
  17. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Duke

    At map clearing all the classes are pretty much equal (some pros and cons here and there, but not that some class has way harder or way easier time than others). That's why I'm talking about bosses.
    "we'll go back to automated and tesla turret" And everything will be fine. The discussed set combo only has to be nerfed so that the other builds can match it, then similar thing for ranger, empower ranger globally (as a class: so exp tree and base values) to the dwarf level - in fact it would require that much, then empower mage globally (exp tree skills and base values) to outdamage both dwarf and ranger.

    It should be something like this then:
    • DK: High HP - Low dmg
    • Ranger: Average HP - Average dmg
    • SM: Low HP - Average dmg (compensated by using turrets instead of having to stop to attack oneself)
    • SW: Low HP - High dmg
    Read my original post.
    Since when there are random monsters at boss rooms?
    Cannot? My OP proves quite the contrary.
    If you're noob playing with high-end players or in low mode... then yes. I have no idea what turrets are you trying to use that they have to "start to shoot". You deploy one machine gun turret... or one tesla (depends on the elemental affinity which one is better)... If you need to cover some more area, you deploy a second one... And everything dies right away. If it doesn't... well, for a ranger/mage to one hit everything and run forward it takes good states as well (in fact even better than a dwarf).
    Where and with who are you playing? Painful mode PW and 20k dmg people?
    And dwarfs can keep all their 8 turrets 100% uptime everywhere. Yeah.
  18. Purgerzg

    Purgerzg Active Author

    In all boss rooms there are random monsters,since ever.MG and Tesla doesen't have anything with q8-q7 combo and still they do not give damage immediately.I play with friends,farm speed depend of time for sell items.And I never see any diffirent of playing with any class (similar stats).And I am not noob,I just know that I don't know.Ofc,you could learn that nerfing one class trigger nerf of all classes.And cooldown with watching videos on youtube,they are just posting best farm,to show I don't know wath.
  19. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    Ok since im speaking with a dwarf while writing this ill just write some things down:

    1) He has permanent q7 by the words of a dwarf player himself ( and he has only 10% CDR in runes so imagine with max - 30%)
    2)on maps you dont use turrets and you speed yourself this way
    3)The combo q7-q8 is just broken and no other build stands a chance ye nobody wants to get nerfed and this is why the suggestion is either buff other classes or just tune down a little the q8 set iself he is the problem , critdwarf existed before and was pretty good but q8 pushed it overthe top
    4) Funny interaction but dwarf gets the group bonusesw while being with itself ( i guess lonelines makes us crazy at some point ) but he can literary use the tesla group efect when ALONE ( with 1 turret donw)plus the turrets get the effect though the speed doesnt affect theor atack speed stuns cant actually tuch them for instance Heredur stun doesnt touch them making them pretty much invulnerable unless they are hit with raw dmg , for example with grimmag fireball or smt )
    5)One other thing is that ranger returns cooldown on net by mere 40% BY chance yes CHANCE tanks needs to CRIT with atack
    The mage needs to stay Still in one place ( while having the lowest hp ), and the ...... dwarf can stay afk and with q8 the turets return 6 seconds per second........ok i see nothing not broken here . The ratio of cd return is for tank-2-3 per sec ,for mage 1 per sec for ranger chance to get it back or no , dwarf- 6sec per second for a 30 sec cd skill mind you that while you are spamming the q7 set for 3 sec you get your 30 sec cd reduced since the turrets are also atacking , so pretty much perma q7 with 0 effort
    So everybody except the dwarf have to do smt or risk smt while they do nothing basically and since the turrets dont draw agro if you know how to not be dumb you get q7 permanent for free ???? just like that ok ?
  20. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Nope, totally didn't realize.

    Ummmmmm, all of them?
    Q1. Skelatons and the HP regen monster
    Q2. Two different types of spiders
    Q3. The exploding archers
    Q4. The occasional wolf
    Q5. Andermagic swordsmen and clones
    Q6. The knights
    Q7. The fire whirls
    Q8. The ice whirls
    Q9. The jellyfish and the initial two spare gorgans

    Yes and no. They do not have a special effect, but those two turrets have the highest DoT. Combine that with the 150% damage buff and they provide a significant boost to the over all DPS against a stationary target (i.e. a boss).

    This is reasonable. The SW version of the set also triples the number of projectiles for a skill (ice missile), but it reduces the damage of each individual missile (30% vs 40%). Sure, the over all damage from three lower damage ice missiles goes up vs a single unaffected ice missile, but not three times higher (2.25x higher). The SM's mechanical turret damage should be higher with the set, but not three times higher.

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