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Feedback Dwarf: Q7+Q8 combo

Discussion in 'Steam Mechanicus' started by ΣMiwel, Jan 8, 2019.

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  1. elitecrew1031

    elitecrew1031 Junior Expert

    If you are trying to compare my game expirience with my forum rank you are EDIT.Well sorry i don't have the time to get my forum rank back because my native forum got closed (and maybe i will be experienced player in your eyes, if my shiny forum rank was bigger) but ok, if a noob means a player that have ranger (can do inf1,2 without problems)a dwarf (can do inf 3,4 without problems) and a tank (can tank inf 2,3 without problems) then yes im a noob.



    Well good job Mr math boy,i said it before dwarfs have the best dps on bosses but if we compare map clear+ the boss, it's obvious who will be faster.


    When BP decides to give diversety on dwarfs ill stop playing with q8/7 set i am not a mage that can choose 3 diffrent builds based on their playstyle.If they nerf the q8 (like you and every other crybaby want) it's a direct dwarf nerf because this is the only class that need this set.

    Remember when crit dwarf wasn't a thing, when dwarfes were with blood mage set,and we didn't need crit.Every class was crying how unfair it is that dwarfs don't build crit. BP decided to make our turrets destructable and gave the the turrets crit.And now you cry how broken crit dwarfs is.o_O
     
    Last edited by moderator: Jan 12, 2019
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  2. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    Are you so sure about your arguments?
    Are you an experienced player (in general) to really understand where the real gain in farming speed is?
    Lemme tell you 2 simple things:
    - Boss farming speed matters NOTHING (or almost nothing). Whoever thinks could make any difference to kill a boss in 10" or 20" should just uninstall this game and play something else (solitare for instance).

    Since you are providing "solid" proofs (as those "calculations" you did can, in any way, show how the real world works) show me a vid in which a dwarf is twice as fast to clear a map compared to this mage



    And the SWs are the slowest to kill in a boss fight. I already told you, that any DPS calculation doesn't matter, the only thing that can show the potential of a class in PvE are the LB points/sec. In this case, DK is dominant followed by RA and SW, SM is probably the worst class because they lack in mobiity and burst.

    - The first to be called "noob" is the one that uses the term. We already saw the damages done when devs followed those "wonderful" suggestions ignorants of the class gave (crit & HP for turrets for instance). Funny thing is those ignorants never answered to my arguments with an half decent answer when I said those would have done more harms than the problems would have solved.

    So the thing is:
    do you think dwarfs are too fast with boss fights? No problem, nerf Q8 (if you think that's the problem) but let's give SM the same farming speed in maps? ok? Because me (which definatly knows better that you the class but uses also to compare my scores with similar equipped players and uses the brain when does the comparison) knows that I'm slower than the others because my freaking turrets take FOREVER before they can do anything while SWs/RAs/DKs can totally obliterate trashes/elites WHILE running through the map, I have barely no movement buffs, my blink suxs and we have only Q7 buff for burst dmg.

    So the real solution, the one that those "expert" player cannot think about, would be to make the bosses less static and make 1ko melee attacks so our DK friends will learn how to dodge an hit sometime.

    Why haven't you said you are sorry for all the false things you said and ppl proved were false?
    Ad just FYI, metheors on the turrets is a bug.

    Why haven't you said you are sorry for the misinformation you gave?

    even if it was permanent (which is more that possible) can you show me the vid in which the dwarf is twice as fast at the map clearing?
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
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  3. elitecrew1031

    elitecrew1031 Junior Expert

    Please go ahead create a dwarf lvl it up 55. And show us (to all dwarf players) how broken and fast dwarf can be.

    Just im going to say how broken q8 set for dwarf is and i want this set to be nerfed.Because it makes dwarf really broken(using your logic).
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
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  4. bezryl

    bezryl Active Author

    finally i see someone who realises the real *broken* thing about q8 its not the dmg its the cd reduction, combined with critical high attack speed and in my case the 300 point wisdom talent (i think this is 5% cd reduction/sec when near turets will have to check ingame)that is soo strong because YES IT LETS YOU SPAM Q7 EVEN ON BOSSES

    your idea seems okay id have no problem with it

    an idea, maybe they could shoot just 1 shot but its an aoe frost exsplosion of some kind? it could be kinda like mages frozen sphere but a small one

    that would give it a nice slow effect and extra dmg from the aoe but not give more cd reduction, it wouldnt have to increase the dmg because you would be getting more dps in cleaning maps from the aoe but on bosses it wont be as powerful?

    now far as bosses really i just cant think of any way to make it more balanced, like i said before even before q7-q8 dwarfs were king on boss killing with machine guns/tesla. the only real way maybe would to rertrict how many turets you can use in a boss to 1

    that doesnt sound like a fun idea and the rage from dwarfs would be insane, another option they have is to just give the other 3 class a flat out dmg buff against boss like 25-50% and leave dwarfs as it is? idk on the numbers to make it more fair im not good with them


    now this is off topic but feel like sharing an idea lol

    so for dwarfs tooo much of our dmg is in the turets, maybe our current turets could *alter* our skills
    so like machine gun could make your quick shot into well a machine gun that works as machine guns does and penetrates the enemies

    mechanical turet could be like little shoulder mounted ones that you dont have to deploy all the time and just keep steam until canceled like -50 ea

    a side note i mention mechanical turet is soo nice because of you dont have to watch were you deploy it or aim it like machine gun it shoots and tragets on its own it is such a nice quality of life, if machine guns would actually aim at enemies so you dont have to aim it you would see sooo many ditch q8 set lol even tesla if it did the dmg in an area around you and moved with you it would be used sooo much more. mechanical with q8 is just better for ease of play then the other turets change them and maybe it will not be EVERYONE used the same q7-q8...


    ill give my opinion on the dwarf skills its my views of been playing mine since they came out, keep in mind i am not considering pvp as i dont play it anymore

    quick shot: restores steam that it the best function and imo a needed one of this skill, speed buff dont give a crap
    heavy shot: this skill is okay...i guess without q7 it dont see much use because its better to just quick shot for steam
    oil: not used
    tactical turet: again this skill is never used
    bombs: i really wana use this skill but i cant the steam regen from quick shot is just better
    machine guns: really good aoe but alas the q7-q8 combo is just easyer and better atm to use
    tesla: same as above..
    steam conducter: this skill mhm i dunno, its not really used for the cd reduction or slight speed buff just the healing, i also think the healing in pve is a bit op from this maybe a cd is needed(like in pvp) and change the speed buff/cd reduction to sometihng else more usefull
    shrapnel shot: its okay but i dont really use it i am busy spaming q7 or quick shoting
    iron dwarf: another useless skill, it gets used....on certain events for some skips..
    jump:its well a jump nothing specail here other then we can use it alot more often
    dwarf in the box:another useless one the steam cost makes it not viable to use because it takes the steam needed from other turets, however it does have minor uses, like for example with a weaker dwarf friend he will *tank* with it and with enough speed you can straight out tank bosses with it on inf4 even np

    sorry if this last part was off topic but i felt like sharing
     
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  5. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    It let's you spam that combo only with the bosses and it isn't that OP anyway.
    I tested it multiple times with my toon and the difference with and without the cooldown reset on the mech turrets were barely 12" which, over 4' full run aren't OP in anyway.

    The idea is just useless because doesn't give anything in change of the flat nerf.

    I did a run doing exacty the same path of the mage in the video I posted and this is the result (and my gear is absolutlyy comparable to the gear of that guy if not better)



    So I was SLOWER even with the speed buff I found in the run and I should be nerfed AGAIN because a random guys says he thinks a nerf it's needed?
     
  6. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    Ye i dont know what you mean by AGAIN sinc e the last time balance was changed dwarf got this combo q7 and q8 last time you said dwarf will become trash but he became op
    So what do we see in the video you are just slightly slower but on the booss you are atleasr 3x times faster plus you use stacking belt so your dmg comes over time not immediately and we are speaking for lv of character who can fast kill the mobs nto like 4 hit kill..... your video just proves that you dont use turrets good on map

    Second using q1 as comparison is such a scummy move ( due to circle having a lot of mobs and mage being able to spam ice sphere ) why dont you compare it in q7 and q8 where mages s dmg is cut in half ? because dwarf will look strong......
     
  7. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Some things need a flat nerf because it is working in a way that was not foreseen by the noob developers... problem is, it requires them to admit that they made a mistake. If any other class was able to drop cool downs by 6+ seconds per second while you and the other two classes could only get 2-3 seconds per second, you'd probably think it was OP too.
    A whole 21 seconds slower than that SW's best run this season... a whole 10% slower than the SW you are comparing yourself to...
    THATS IT! STOP EVERYTHING! SM are 100% being discriminated against and don't need a nerf, they need a super buff so that this one poor, unfortunate SM can be 10% faster while clearing a map at an already blistering pace! /s
    In all seriousness, you say:
    But we have to take your word for it since I don't know your current DPS stats... Plus we are are talking about 10% difference, a lot of that could be a matter of a lucky run vs a not so lucky run. Maybe, if you ran a dozen such runs and showed us your absolute best, then maybe I'd be impressed by the difference. Plus, you are using the mechanical turret in an area with large groups of mobs... which is it's most ineffective turret to handle high mob densities. It's as if you went out of your way to use the Q7+Q8 skills as much as possible, as if that would some how prove your point. Instead, you did just the opposite because the fact is, Mechanical Turrets, even high damage triple shooting ones, are one of the worst ways to clear the circle due to their single target nature. If anything, it is a testament to the power of the Q7+Q8 set that you clear it as fast as you do, despite using such an inefficient method. I'm sure that a SM with comparable stats to you who applied their turrets more intelligently might have been able to make up that 10% difference.

    That too... Plus, as said, this thread is mostly about DPS against bosses, not map clearing speed, and as I stated earlier, my proposed "nerf" (I prefer "Balancing measure") would have a minimal impact on map clearing speed (done right, not with mechanical turrets), but would balance boss killing speed.



    Also, for the boss comparison, the SW is using the "Q7, switch to Bloodmage" technique. In my opinion, that is another "feature" that could use "a flat nerf because it is working in a way that was not foreseen by the noob developers." The SWs are the only ones who's Q7 buff lasts long enough for them to actually make use of this feature, but something tells me that the developers never intended that players should be able to switch to a higher damage weapon after triggering the buff to get even more damage out of it. The whole point of having different gear/sets is that players need to chose between the advantages/disadvantages of the different sets/gear. In my not so humble opinion, if you switch out a set, any buff that was triggered by that set should disappear. But, at the same time, in case any dev ever reads this, "debuff" cooldowns should be maintained so that people couldn't beat the system by switching gear to reset the cool downs (like the Dragan Laser).

    See? I'm equal opportunity… I think everything should be reasonably balanced.
     
  8. MiSi1234

    MiSi1234 Someday Author

    But you didn't...I'm not really sure what this vid is supposed to prove honestly, Godofmages his vid showed him killing most of the mobs in map1 & map2, while in your vid you skip mobs completely and only go for the elites.
    That's why Im pretty surprised you were slower than him, you should've been faster by farming the way you did.

    I made a vid as well, farming the same way you did (killing elites, skipping mobs) but without any buffs except from my belt. I'm sure if you change your way of playing you can be much faster than you've shown.
    (this is absolutely not the way I would choose to farm q1 map & grimmag btw, cause Grimmag is easily possible within 10 seconds, though I'm not sure if that's intended)

    both Q7 & Q8 sets are decent sets on their own, but combining them creates this insane single-mob dmg. Also I think many players are underestimating the dmg blue turrets can do after a q7 buff, they're like mini-Heavy Shots.
    Thing is...if you killed Grimmag 20 secs faster in your vid then you would've matched the speed shown by Godofmages in his vid, but then you wouldn't be able to say:
    Anyway, I think a suggestion like this:
    could move the boss-balancing into a good direction.
    In my vid you can see I also farm with bombs, simply because I like them, but I know they're not all that great...so how about increasing the explosion range (and/or decrease the time it takes to explode) so that their effectiveness won't change too much at boss rounds but will give dwarves a better skill for grouped mobs to increase map-speeds.
    I do know that now we can get into the whole discussion where, if they do change the bombs this way, they'll be way too OP in pvp but since this is purely a PVE topic lets please skip that discussion. the developers should've kept skill values separate (PVE & PVP) from the beginning.

    Furthermore I strongly support this:
    All bosses simply are too predictable, this makes them boring and easy to 'learn'.

    TL;DR...change q8 set slightly to make it less OP at bosses, increase the area-dmg skills like bombs or shrapnel shot for example to make it better suited for grouped mobs & map farming.

    - Michi
     
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  9. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    or they can make the heavy shot upgrade ( the one that increases the shots ) to whe nyou hit smt in a cone after it mobs take 150% dmg or smt it wont be op since it gives a lot more waveclear especially with q7 activated and put the baragain idea and it doesnt seem that bad i wont even call ita nerf rather balancing mobs traget dps and boss dps
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
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  10. MiSi1234

    MiSi1234 Someday Author

    True, though the reason I chose for bombs mainly was cause it has the potential to be a pretty useful skill for grouped mobs, but as it is now it's just not 'that' great sadly. I do like your idea though.

    - Michi
     
  11. Saved_81

    Saved_81 Forum Master

    Exactly like my run.
    My DPS isn't enought then take Michelle's one.
    I'm not asking anything, you are the ones that are asking for a nerf.
    That's the best area to use the turrets, when you have to move through a map and the turrets are dismantled every 3-4" you wouldn't have recovered any cooldown from them.
    The more you have to move the less that combo is effective.
    Michelle in her video uses those turrets more than me and those are enough to clear the area.
    That's exactly the point, I skipped almost everything in the map (so I was more efficient) that wasn't enough to be faster than the mage and someone here still thinks the problem was a lucky run or whatever exuses they can find to not admit the classes are just balanced.
    On a side note, I don't understand why should I kill anything more than what I need to have the full mobs bar... if anything, "godofmages" should have killed less mobs than he did in any of his runs and probably his score could be way better than that.
    Did you notice my mech turrets were doing 72-77k crits and yours were doing 100k+? Do you think that would have made any difference? On the other side I was using Steam conductor, Tactical turrets for the speed buff, I used regularly 3-4 turrets and I kept swapping MG turrets/HS every time I had spare steam to use.
    You were faster than him by 23", 33" faster than me in my best run, skipping all the trashes in the fast run, would you be able to be faster than him killing also the trashes? I hardly belive it, anyway the way any other class can clean maps it's definatly faster than anything a SM can do and the things go even worse when the maps are bigger and the mobs are more spreaded.
    The problem is that the reason why it's fair for a SM to better is better @ the boss fight it's because he's actually worse with the map farming.

    If you wanna make the class worse with the boss farming you have to make it better with the other stuff.
    See? I'm equal opportunity… I think everything should be reasonably balanced.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  12. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    So yet again you basicvally ignored what me michelle and baragain and the whole threadsaid , threw smt like and this is why this should not be touched blah blah but also you said taht your dmg is weaker than michelle ....... pull your things together and dont just throw arguments left and right.
     
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  13. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Thank you for proving my point, to an extent.
     
  14. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Duke

    What arguments? I don't see any arguments in their posts, one is name-calling and the other one spreads lies.
    Well, then maybe try green ess at boss next time?
    The difference at lower damages is insane. I am helping a dwarf buy sets one run... next run he's stronger than me.
    Why to nerf while buffing from another side? Then the whole nerf wouldn't make sense.
    I think your effective resource was lower (resource or resource cost reduction), your basic travel speed was lower, no idea about the other stats. And again, gear isn't anything, you have to try to be faster, actually... and you didn't, you wanted to prove your point.
    You were slower because you didn't make haste enough, you picked up loot and opened shabby chests, which that mage didn't, you rammed walls a few times as well (eg. 2:01).
    That too.
    It wasn't, vide run of @MiSi1234 + I am sure more better runs could be found.
    That you both are using those turrets doesn't mean that they're the best possibilty. Despite any elemental affinity (which matters only for the archers in q1 anyways), automated turrets are the fastest against hordes. Also a different path (in your case especially) could be faster (visit circle, kill mobs on the way to the end, mount back to wreck circle with 2xAT, mount again to the map end).
    What skipped? Just... Please... Take a look when Godofmages reaches the end of the green bar (at the end of m2) and when you and Michelle approached that end of bar (the same end of m2)... He killed a few more mobs only, that bar doesn't lie.
    What worse with the map farming? Dwarf is as good as SW or even better in some maps.
    Dwarf currently deals over 2x more dmg to boss than an SW (with SW having built up stats that dwarf doesn't need). SW should deal more dmg than dwarf, since SW is supposed to be the dmg dealer class (with DK being the "tank" class and ranger & dwarf being hybrids).
     
  15. Bundin

    Bundin Forum-Apprentice

    Ok I wrote my opinion here I agree with that Q8 set give a lot advanteges for dwarfs. But I see here a lot of Argument what Shows me some guys didnt know that how must be used the dwarfs skills aktually.
    First the q7 set have a bug, lot of the times the Rocket after a succsesfull hit didnt release the buff of the Q7 set this is a really old Problem by the dwarf. Why I wrote this why is that so important? Because thats defines your skill sequence.
    So how must be use the skillsequence good with dwarf to reduce the q7 rocket bug? That knows really few Player I saw in Videos befor too. So to handel the seize up Problem with q7 set u must cast before the rocket launching mechanical turret because its can with the coldown reduction solve this Problem, so we dont loose much time because the bug when somebody cast first the rocket, and the rocket seize up than he/she can´t shot with Speed buff the Heavy shot what does the real big dmg. So the good sequence is the following:
    Version "A":
    1. oil slick
    2. two mechanical turret
    3. rocket
    4. Heavy shot until the buff end
    4b. When your rocket not ready some Quick shot to generate steam for Towers and Oil slick
    5. after the buff is over again rocket
    6. Heavy shot
    7. befor the last q7 buff is over u must cast again 2 mechanical turret and this is what really heavy because u dont have so much steam when the Towers are deployed.
    Version "B":
    1. oil slick
    2. Rocket (here always there is the risk of seize up aprox. 30%)
    3. Automated turret 2x
    4. Heavy shot until buff is on but when its seize up than next point
    5. quickshot to make steam for Mechanical turret.
    6. Mechanical turret deploying 2x
    7. Oil Slick and Rocket Little quickshot.
    8. Automated turret out 2x
    9. Heavy shot.
    10. Oil Slick and rocekt.
    11. Deploying the Mechanical turrets.
    12. Quickshot
    13. Deploying the Autaomated turrets.
    and again from Point 10... and rotating it Keep steam on the right Level, and deploying always in time the Towers and when u can shot Heavy shot with buff.
    Version "A" is much more easier than "B" and does also enormous dmg my Special Shot does so 290k-330k dmg per shot. Version "B" on inf4 is an impossible Mission because u cant stay in one place so u cant generate enough steam and u cant deploy enough turrets. On inf 4 Version "A" much better...

    So q8 must be reworked but when I remeber good than last year the mage most powerful burst dmg was nerfed the Destruction I think mages must get back the old Destruction spell too.

    1. What would be nice by the dwarfs is the Bomb must be the attackspeed and the release faster to get to be much more useful on map Clearing.
    2. Tactical Tower is a useless skill, that must be changed I prefer better a mortar what follows the enemy like Mechanical turret and shoots bombs on the enemy what explodes so would be useful skill.
    3. Dwarf in the box totally useless skill delete it or rework it. Or change to old schield barrier skill with the following changes it can be placed only on dwarf and on his/her turrets. Or made it stronger not one hit Thing.
    4. Iron dwarf useless because with the double defens bonus I cant get much more dmg reduction(I have alredy 78%) so when I jump in swarm of Mobs I die fast becuase I dont get extra defense with it so it would better when it sould be given not double defense it would be given extra dmg reduction or extra block rate without shield. Or the dmg must be higher for this skill to eliminate faster the Mobs befor they can kill the dwarf.

    For Q8 set would be much better when the Tower get the Advantage for every shot Piercing ice arrows and slowing efect not extra shots after a critical hit, this is my opinion.

    PS: Sorry for my terribel englis grammar but I dont spoke englis since 2005 so I forgot a lot during the last 14 year.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
  16. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Duke

    Destruction was not nerfed, it is simply bugged. Every time they fixed one bug with it they added another one. Now I have found an almost 100% workaround (if I can even call it a workaround) for the current bug, but yeah, it'd be simply fair if it was fixed. If you're referring to the change to 2p. talent in r209... that was a buff that made up for most of the balancing of mage to other classes without the sets, not a nerf.
    Now I haven't heard of it, but it's probable that is similar to the mage's Destruction bug and the same workaround could do.
    Oil slick isn't a must. If you don't have enough max steam, go without it and it'll be better. Just make sure that you use rocket first and use the turrets on the buff from the very begin.
     
  17. Bundin

    Bundin Forum-Apprentice

    I have enough steam BUT as I said when I shoot first rocket than I can get the bug with it, and after that I cant get the Advantage for the heavy shot thats the reason why I shoot first to Mech.Turret because its CD can heal the bug. When I get bug with seize up with rocket than I have 150% Bonus but for the heavy shot I dont get it immediatly I shot one havy shot and start the cooltime but normally dont could be started beacause thats the buff Advantage too. But when the turrets are deploy first this Problem solved only for few msec time fall out from my buff time and I get back the buff as it should be working and as I said the real big dmg can u done by the q7nuff+heavy shot. But yeah u have right when somebody dont have anough steam, dont use oil Slick frist :D
    PS: I Play with dwarf since 2013 so from the beginning of the dwarf
     
  18. MikeyMetro

    MikeyMetro Forum Overlooker

    Lolz, so you have been playing dwarf a year longer than it has been in the game :rolleyes:
     
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  19. Novadude

    Novadude Commander of the Forum

    IIRC, dwarven rally was fall of 2013. I think the class was available only to premium players initially and became available to all in 2014.
     
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  20. Bundin

    Bundin Forum-Apprentice

    Last edited by moderator: Jan 18, 2019

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