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Inconsistencies and strange design decisions of upcoming DtU event that should be addressed.

Discussion in 'General Forum' started by .RakshaRanja., Mar 16, 2019.

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Should they fix the scaling issues with DtU rewards?

  1. Yes! Higher difficulties should equal better rewards!

    9 vote(s)
    90.0%
  2. No. Current rewards are fine and change is unnecessary.

    1 vote(s)
    10.0%
  1. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Someday Author

    Let's start with this one:

    [​IMG]

    Why do I have to pay more than one entrance to enter circus on higher difficulty?
    This alone is one of the strangest designs I ever encountered.

    So, lemme get this straight:

    Not only I have to pay more to enter higher level Circus Monstrorum, I have to fight with much harder enemies AND half of the rewards doesnt scale with difficulty? Why? Why is that the case?

    I dont really understand the idea of difficulty levels if I have to pay more to enter higher difficulty levels. You're already punished with harder enemies that you have to deal with.

    Now second part, drops.

    Drops that scale:

    - Item rarity (more exos on higher difficulty)
    - Item tiers (so their gold value and enchantments)
    - Gold (are silver and gold drops still unaffected by Bonanza?)
    - Andermants
    - Event progress

    Drops that dont scale:

    - Drakens
    - Draken cores
    - Feathers
    - Hearts
    - Keys of Defeat

    There's even a special indicator showing how much will your rewards scale:

    [​IMG]

    "Access Items and other special currencies" which should include:

    - Realm fragments (1, 2 and 5 drops are unviersal fro ALL difficulty levels | either currency or Access Item, should scale)
    - Drakens (special currency)
    - Draken cores (why cores from bosses scale yet cores from chests arent?)
    - Keys of Defeat (should scale at least the same as Keys of Prowess pref 1 key per difficulty - same scaling as cores)

    Circus is already live and you can enter it on live servers. Make your voices heard loud and clear or we'll be stuck with another DtU edition where no matter what your character progression is you have to farm painful cause it's the most efficient way even for endgame players. This alone is super counter-intuitive cause higher difficulty levels should ALWAYS offer more than lower levels. In DtU case higher difficulties = literally less rewards (Inf3 = 2 keys, 4x Painful = 8 keys for example).
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
    Marsicanus likes this.
  2. MikeyMetro

    MikeyMetro Forum Overlooker

    Hmm, I'll just respond to the access requirements (since drops totally blow in general these days :p) It's simple... if a player can handle those higher difficulties then there should be no shortage of RF.
     
  3. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Someday Author

    That's not a reason why rewards for Infernal difficulties should be lower.
    You're putting more effort into fighting bosses off and you should get better rewards. This is "Rewarding players 101".

    Why aren't you paying with multiple realm paths to varholm and blakborg?
    Why aren't you paying with multiple blood vials or new moon scrolls?
    Why ARE YOU paying with multiple realm paths to circus?

    It's not the RFs shortage. Some people have tens of thousands RFs but it's still more profitable to run painful as (almost) maxed out characer than running an adequate difficulty. If character progression would mean anything to devs there would be literally no reason to run painful while being maxed out. Infernal 3 or 4 should be a home for players like these not painful.

    There is a reason why you aren't farming painful parallel worlds if you can handle higher difficulties - the same rule should apply to DtU (and not only).
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  4. MikeyMetro

    MikeyMetro Forum Overlooker

    Comparing moon events to other events is an apples and oranges thing. Mayhaps you're too new to the game to know that since there has been a drought of events for a while now. But this kind of event is supposed to be more difficult.

    If part of the increased difficulty of this event is an increased need for RF... lolz, I'll take that any day ;)
     
    trakilaki likes this.
  5. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Because you get more rewards.
    What have you got from the ultra crap moon events? 5 green, 4 blue and 4 pink items on Infernal IV?
    Well guess what ... you can spend 100 portals to crap moon events and you will get less rewards than you will get with one or two runs on DtU :)
    How many unique items, runes, clovers have you got from moon events? Let me guess ... ZERO to NONE.
    That is not the case with DtU ... and the higher the difficulty is the better the drop is.

    Have you tested the event?
    You can run on live servers as much as you like ... but the event is not active. Have you tested the event on TS?
     
    _Baragain_ likes this.
  6. Novadude

    Novadude Commander of the Forum

    Higher difficulties are useful for getting better dragan gear, for example, and are necessary if you want to complete progress on the higher bars.

    The event design looks reasonable so far to me but I am unable to test it beyond infernal I as my TS ranger is too weak.
     
  7. _G_R_A_M_P_S_

    _G_R_A_M_P_S_ Exceptional Talent

    I agree with Raksha on most accounts.

    Kinda bogus. I can handle inf4, spend realm frags on tp boss farming, and so many FM and NM runs i could fill the progress bars multiple times. So, no i don't have that many RF.

    The increase in rewards must be insane to make up for paying 4 entries instead of 1 (losing 75% of the amount of runs).
     
  8. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Someday Author

    How's drop different during event and without it? There's not a single difference - items, runes, keys, even progress is dropping.

    Gold is meaningless. Im sitting at 225k and there's nothing I can do with it.

    Plentiful.
    4 1h wolf weapons, 1 with gold crit
    many books, adornments, helmets
    5 bloodmage weapons, 1 with gold dmg
    many rings, belts and amulets
    2 cloaks, 3 pair of boots, 2 adornments (one with gold crit), helmet with gold armor and hp, torso with gold armor and hp

    Killed like 10X x Bloodmage (and Vargulf) and about 6X x Karabossa.

    Well, just these from progress bar. 0 from bloodmage but a friend of mine got 4 (I killed every single bloodmage with him). Unlucky I guess.

    Also, Im getting 2 runes for 4 Varholm realm paths and 2 runes for 20 Blakborg realm paths ... every month.
    Last DtU was year ago. Which is 12x Full Moon and 12x New Moon (+2 bonus from moonvember). This year it was 26.
    26x2=52 T1 runes for whooping 3120 RFs.

    I hope I get 1/10 of that in runes of relentnlessness ... for 40k RFs.

    Already visited circus about 100 times and got a nice, round 0 of useful runes (got one rune of the trashquisher)

    These events arent designed to reward players with clovers. Also the amount of clovers they are giving is pathetic tbh. 102 was the number when event was first released on TS (so before rewards were changed). 102 is about ... 5 old clovers (almost 7 if you use their exchange ratio of 15:1). Not impressive at all.

    So many uniques I cant get! Oh wait ... The only one players are interested in are Dragan's and ... that's about it.

    Im not even interested in these cause I have 3 items with 2 gold lines already and augmenting them will be a better deal than counting on RNG to drop these AGAIN but on T7 but I can understand why people want them.

    You can farm Khalys, Herald, Sigris, Gorga, Destructor, Balor and Djinn on a daily basis and you dont need event for that.

    Khalys set? Trash.
    Herald set? Everybody already own it (yes, T7)
    Sigris set? Trash for majority.
    Gorga items? Trash. Doesn't even drop cores on circus.
    Destructor items? Trash. Doesn't even drop PROPER amount of cores on circus.
    Balor set? Trash. Doesnt even drop PROPER amount of cores on circus.
    Djinn scroll? Best dps offhand but still trash in this meta and bonus is broken (deals no damage | at least for mage) since APRIL LAST YEAR. I WAS THE ONE WHO REPORTED IT.
    Wait ... keys are required? I have spare 5000 and I have nothing I can do with them. Im literally bored of farming these and there's nothing I can do with them. Nothing interesting drops from these bosses. Not even ingridients for gems cause I got mine already.

    Gwenfara's weapon is trash for 99% of players.

    Runes of the vanquisher are super helpful! I cant wait to get my hands on them ...

    oh wait. They're useless.

    Sure, you get alot of pinks so you can craft platinum lines ...

    which are unnecessary excluding adornment and weapon. Idc about 24% "more damage" from platinum lines from belt, torso and helmet, 8% attack speed from gloves or 6% run speed from boots. With full gold lines your critical damage is already capped and with 10x T3 speed runes I have reached last FS speed breakpoint. In group I have 4.000 attack speed.

    So many items drop from circus ...

    meaningless currency, there's nothing you can do with it ingame. You can craft, sure. Im done with that already.
    I've checked how much gold (average) I'll get from this DtU. The answer is about 300,000. And what am I supposed to do with it?
    You can farm gold on daily basis, Im farming almost 2k per hour - why would anybody require an event for farming gold when you can already farm more than necessary playing normally.

    The only rewards that are holding value to any endgame player are:

    - Drakens (for future purchases)
    - Draken cores (for future items/sets)
    - Feathers/Hearts

    And all of these arent scaling so everybody will be banging painful day n nite just to get as many as possible.

    This is the exact reason Im saying this is strange design choice. You can lie to yourself that people will be running Inf4 cause "the higher the difficulty is the better the drop is". Yes, they will be - just to finish the progress bars and then they will jump back to painful to grab as many Drakens, Draken cores, Feathers and Hearts as possible.

    Endgame players should be facing enemies that are worthy their presence ... and are not oneshotted with a single or two FSs (funny thing I smacked Sigris with one meteor yesterday and he died).

    It's due time to implement some kind of progression already.
    Endgame players shouldnt farm painful ... this sounds like exploit or simply bad design (excluding situations where they help low level players).
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  9. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    You have right to opinion ... but you are lacking facts to back it up.
    You see that is the difference between you and me. You can't back up your 8 pages long rant ... I can back up my one sentence short reply. :)
    What do you think ... why the devs allowed the players to use their DtU left over portals before the event starts? :)

    You may not like the rewards or unique items ... as much I don't like 100% of the items you are using. But your and my disliking is our own opinion/liking ... events are not made for you and me ... they are made for all players.
    Saying that players don't like those items is just nonsense.
    "99% of the players don't like Gwenfara weapon/items" ... yet again we are all whining ... "tanks have huge advantage in PvP because of those items" ... or "rangers have too much damage on that weapon, why we SWs can't have such weapon?" :)
    You see your 99% suddenly dropped to 30%

    Anyway ... I won't make it long ... I know things you don't know because you haven't been playing the event on TS.
    BTW when I say clover I mean real clover from drop ... not conversation value in clover.

    Here is my screenshot ... show your screenshot with drops form moon event ... let us "wage our tools on the table" :)
    Note: I only keep unique items that are better that the ones I already have ... trust me I have got over 100 unique items during my testing (not playing just testing) ... (those draken and runes are from drop only)
    [​IMG]
    I am not counting progress rewards and 8x540=4320 draken from progress only (^ not those ... those are from drops)

    BTW

    I know why there is no single reply in that thread ... because you were one year too late :p
    Those items were bugged in April 2017 and are still bugged ... I reported them on TS while ULTRAPEINLICH made report on forums ... both back in April 2017. They are bugged for all classes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  10. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Someday Author

    If that's the case then it's the definition of scam. I'll closely watch that. But that changes nothing regarding why "currencies" drops that are said they scale arent scaling (Drakens, Draken Cores and Realm Fragments).

    I said clearly you can farm all these bosses without event active. All of them are available every day, 24/7, meaning these uniques aren't event exclusive. Them being trash is another point.

    You said multiple times over past few months that nobody's playing pvp. Make up your goddamn mind.
    Also I said weapon cause that's the one thing that can drop from her. Offhand is dropping from creepy castle's guardian.

    Not a single clover can drop from Circus alone. You gotta go into secret lairs to get additional clovers from Circus altars. That's like 3 or 4 bonus clovers each map. With my offerings stash (+60 bought during event) I can grab about 800 bonus clovers which sounds like alot ... but it isnt. 1000 clovers (800 bonus + 100 from progress bars + 100 from collector's bag) in total is (almost) 3 speed runes or 4 runspeed/cdr runes or 5 armor runes.

    1000/15 ~ 67 "old" clovers

    which again sounds like alot from one event but I got 98 in a month of spending gold at jesters (and it wasnt the only reward).

    With jesters or goblins around I could get much more than that. Yay, thanks BP!

    Sorry, I already sold all these unique items.

    Yes, I know drakens from progress bars are going straight into currency bag. Im here since day -1 (aka closed beta).
    I just dont have BP behind my back so I cant test as much as I want to (I was able to test stuff in my PL team days), sorry buddy - not equal grounds.

    I got 725 drakens and 14 uniques from 98 entrances - which sounds about right. One dude made detailed video about TS numbers and he had 18,9% chance for drakens. For me it was 14,8%. RNG I guess.

    Priorities I guess.

    It was broken since R185. Not broken as OP but broken. Fists werent dealing damage every time even during its first "30% max hp" iteration. They broke them completely with changing AoE.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  11. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    No one is playing because of the imbalance and the broken mechanics of PvP ... so these Gwenfara items are working towards the imbalance. And depending on which class you play they are more then "wanted dead or alive".
    Ahhh ... dude ... I thought you have at least slight insight into this new event.
    Look what Gwenfara had under her skirt when I killed her:
    [​IMG]
    She is dropping ALL unique items (weapon, offhand, cloak)
    All bosses can drop their unique items ... but the drops are much higher than in PW or the other events :) You can farm PW for years and never get a single unique item ... but in this event you can get almost all of them .


    EDIT
    //////

    I just got the cloak on live server :)

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
    MikeyMetro likes this.
  12. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Someday Author

    Hm, maybe. I couldnt care less about pvp so Im not gonna talk about it.
    I heard vargulf's weapon is go-to for pvp, guess I heard wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Well Im gonna say that's surprising. It's a plus nonetheless!
    Thought they are so lazy that they simply copied drops from halloween Gwenfara (or maybe it's cause DtU Gwenfara has old droptable? who knows).
    Okay that is a stretch. A big one.
    Get me an account like yours and I'll spend every single ounce of time testing new things on TS but as for now:

    "I just dont have BP behind my back so I cant test as much as I want to (I was able to test stuff in my PL team days), sorry buddy - not equal grounds."

    Tbf I like how you are nitpicking all the "little mistakes" I made like ignoring bonus clovers from lairs (not like jesters and goblins were much more profitable) or being wrong about Gwenfara drop yet you're nimbly dodging elephant in the room - why are endgame players always banging painful when it comes to DtU (excluding cases when they want to flex on youtube)?
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  13. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Not with the changes to the progress bar... I'll be doing Painful for the first two progress bars, Fatal for the third and fourth bars, Infernal II for the fifth and sixth progress bars, Infernal IV in the last two bars... in fact, I may just buy direct portals to Dragan for the majority of the last bar for cores and gear, but that is another point.

    The point is, they finally found a way to incentivize the DtU event. If you want more rewards, you need to be able to farm at higher difficulties, you need to have farmed more resources, and you need to ultimately be stronger.

    Exaggeration, but an exaggeration born out of a frustrating reality. I earned 9/9 gold leaderboards last season and saw three total boss uniques last season. In this season, I've earned 5/9 golds and 4/9 silvers so far and only seen one PW unique. Compare that to Trakilaki farming with left over passes at low difficulty (better drops at higher difficulties), but already having gotten the Gwenfara cape, not to mention what he got on the Test Server.

    Long story short, you're making a big deal out of something that is not "big deal" worthy. Just think, if you'd been farming instead of whining on the forums about something that is not really that bad for players, you might have farmed enough for a handful of extra passes.


    Now, the key issue with your original complaint. You complain that it is more expensive to enter higher difficulties in DtU than it is for the moon events.

    First of all, the moon events come every month, so it makes sense to make them less expensive than something that comes a couple times a year.
    Second, there is only a single progress bar for both of the moon events, so "finishing the event faster" is the motivation to do higher difficulties. On the other hand, DtU has it's new progress bars mechanic, so that is the motivation in this case... as explained above.
    Finally, you don't need to farm a "daytime" version of the DtU for some special item necessary for when DtU finally comes, while meanwhile giving you absolutely garbage drops. On the other hand, the full moon and new moon maps need silver essence and fair wood, which usually means wasting "resources out of season."
     
    MikeyMetro likes this.
  14. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Someday Author

    And what after progress bar? I clearly said:

    "You can lie to yourself that people will be running Inf4 cause "the higher the difficulty is the better the drop is". Yes, they will be - just to finish the progress bars and then they will jump back to painful to grab as many Drakens, Draken cores, Feathers and Hearts as possible."
    And this case closes with last progress bar.
    4 entrances on painful will probably result in the same amount of gold or more glyphs, 4 times more keys so effectively 4 times more chances for Drakens or Draken Cores (which dont scale btw).

    Like I said before - I get that some players will farm Gwenfara or Dragan and I get why. This is the point that is valid. Im positive people will prefer running Dragan directly for 64 RFs instead of counting on RNG in CM tho.

    Still, this isnt a counter argument for drakens, draken cores and keys not scaling with the difficulty.
    Uniques arent dropping THAT often but is that a biggie? Nobody's buying direct boss entrances making materi obsolete in the long run.
    I have 8 mil materi and nothing I can do with it. Getting 20k per hour is super easy. 2 hours of farming and you got yourself an unique of your choice (excluding weapon).
    Im not whining. The "elephant in the room" everybody's dodging nimbly should be addressed and you all know that. Endgame playes should not farm painful - it's counter intuitive. Why are you progressing your character if not to deal with harder and stronger enemies? Why are you trying to improve your character? Just to rot on painful?

    I dont really have to farm at this point. I dont have that many RFs but I still have to do 275 painful CMs each day. With one CM taking 2 minutes (including picking drop, opening chests, loading maps) I have to spend 10h every day of event farming CM ... just to use entrances I'll buy. That's more than enough.
    It's not the key issue. The key issue is endgame players banging painful cause it's the most profitable way to get as many Drakens, Draken Cores, Feathers and Hearts. Obviously some people will spend some RFs on direct bosses entrances cause they're missing Gwenfara's bow or shield or dont have Dragan set but that's about it. Majority of items that can drop from there are not only available 24/7 but are trash in the long run too.
    That is true however I think the difficulty system was put in place for a reason. There's no need for punishing players twice for picking higher difficulties (especially without scaling drops of items I mentioned, with them scaling it would be okay-ish).
    Almost nobody's doing moon events just for progress bars. I know that. You know that.
    Imagine how fun it would be if you'd have to pay 4 realm paths to blakborg while searching for shoulders or torso with golden bases.

    Especially with previous drops (pre 214).
    I didnt visited "daytime" versions of both maps for 2 or more years. There's literally no need to.
    You get enough wood from doing progress and amphoras every month.
    You get enough essences from cursed amphoras every month (and Im already sitting at 14k of spare shining ess).
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  15. TwiliShadow

    TwiliShadow Old Hand

    @.RakshaRanja. and @_Baragain_

    You both have excellent points and your arguing the two sides of the same coin.

    What it boils down to is this:
    "What is one trying to farm?" That is the deciding factor for which level one runs.

    In circus and moons I've solo'd painful, fatal, and inf2. I've grouped inf3 and inf4.

    In circus:
    If the goal is a drop, then its inf3/4 in a group.
    If its draken, draken cores, and/or other cores, then its painful solo. (Because its the most resource efficient.)

    In new/full moon:
    If the goal is a drop, then its inf3/4 in a group.
    If its draken cores, then its the highest solo/group level where I/we can kill spider queen in under 1 minute (thus getting two within the wood buff).

    And I'm wishing as well that the core drops from circus chests scaled cause then I'd farm fatal or inf2 (depending on my essence supply).
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  16. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Someday Author

    Sadly I have to disagree.

    Both of them (Traki and Baragain) are dodging the biggest issue here - counter intuitive design of farming painful (DtU) as endgame player.

    One of the best examples that follow the same logic is Anniversary event where both egg openers, crystals of truth and piniata truncheon on Anniversary arena werent scaling with difficulty.

    Even with the same entrance costs but scaling drakens, draken cores and keys of defeat do you think endgame players that can handle inf3 difficulty would farm painful?

    Even the fact you pay 4 entrances but get 4 times the drakens, cores and keys (example) would immediately change the way event would be farmed for highend to endgame.

    This is the trap that many players fall into cause they think "well the higher the level the better the drop is" but in reality it's not only not better but it's harder to kill these mobs or bosses which is why Traki's "event guides" or tips (w/e) on wiki are a thing.

    It is better on parallel worlds or scaling difficulties where you get more gold, glyphs, anders, materi or keys or prowess (realm fragments should scale too!!) cause you are there to farm these but these things are meaningless on events. You dont need events to farm gold, glyphs, anders or materi - you're farming these on a daily basis. You're farming events for EVENT stuff like drakens, draken cores, event currencies, event pets, event items - you name it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
    heror likes this.
  17. heror

    heror Forum Commissioner

    What u said is true but is apllyable only for core farming ( atleast thats what most ppl farm on events ) On Dtu Painfull Dragan will be the best way to farm cores
    But finishing the event is as Baragain said.
    For vargulf there is no incentive to go on low difficulty since u are wasting resource. Depending on the character strenght on FullMoon the higher difficulty the more cores in one go. And if u have limited blood thats even more encouraging.Not to mention unique tiers matter.,
    So as @TwiliShadow said u are both corrct
    Since i saw you spekaing about Feathers. From the enterances i used yesterday On inf4 i always got a feather from a boss or atleast 50% of the time while on painfull not that often , ill confirm it on friday
     
  18. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Someday Author

    Not only cores. Drakens, draken cores, feathers, hearts.

    This applies to many events.

    Imagine scaling wood on Blakborg (look how much scaling new moon progress changed - people actually started doing Blakborg on highest possible difficulty they can handle!). Scaling silver pebbles on Moonsilver mine. Scaling egg openers, crystals of truth, piniata truncheons. Scaling cursed pearls (not 1-2 more where it's 10% more and not even on all drops but just bigger ones). Scaling "gruesome minion part" (50 for one remedium - Halloween).

    Most of these places suffer from being banged on painful, even by endgame players just because these dont scale. Neither drop rates nor quantity.

    The same goes for farming keys. Where do you farm them? The best is either Stonekeep or FBI cause both are small with alot of bosses (Stonekeep has more) and you can farm Ruby ingridients on Stonekeep.

    Why arent people farming Stalgard or Eternal Watch? Cause map is few times bigger in size and there's the same number of bosses (or slightly more but that doesnt compensate the size of area you have to travel through). Also there's one Sentinel chest where drop from it is the same for both Stonekeep and Stalgard while there are 4 times as many mobs and map is like 5 times bigger.
    Obviously these are just polarized examples just to show one more example of bad design.
    Great. Finishing event is literally 1/20 of RFs Im gonna spend on this event and I dont even have that many RFs cause Im completly bored of banging the same maps. Imagine somebody with twice (which is not that impressive) as much RFs as I have.
    The amount of RFs endgame players are willing to spend farming inf3/4 is literally a micro part of what they will spend in total.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  19. heror

    heror Forum Commissioner

    I farm whatever map i want with keys even andrakash . Imat that point in game that when i craft new gloves and boots im literary done and only need runes and drakens for events..... it depends how u want to play.\ My rubies are already maxed so i have fun with the game.
    About events i farm them on inf3 because items sell price scales. plus i help other ppl. Being efficient and having fun are 2 different things and u are right for efficincy but in the end its the player who decides how to play
     
  20. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Someday Author

    And majority is playing efficiently.

    Also, the game should be fun regardless.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019

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