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Suggestion Minimum requirements for dungeon difficulty

Discussion in 'Creative Corner' started by MademoiselleCaramel, Aug 8, 2018.

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Do you think there should be minimum requirements for dungeons?

  1. Yes

    5 vote(s)
    45.5%
  2. No, because...

    6 vote(s)
    54.5%
  1. MademoiselleCaramel

    MademoiselleCaramel Junior Expert

    I think I saw somewhere some posts regarding this, but I cannot find it right now, and I think this thing should be addressed ASAP.

    In many other games I saw that to enter certain dungeons, certain difficulties etc, you need to fulfill certain requirements. And that is absolutely logic and normal. In DSO we do not have that kind of thing.

    What happened to me today, and why I am writing all this.

    I saw on local chat someone asking for help with q8 quest, and I invited player to group to help him. We finished first quest on painful, and the moment he got second quest, to clear full dungeon, he asked me to go INF2 for boss, and he will find tank. I was SHOCKED, like you just opened m2 map, have never been there, do not know how m2 look, do not know how boss works, and you immediately want to go INF2?? You expect to get unique, or what? This is absolutely ridiculous.

    Since most of the players do not know where is their place when they hit lvl55, the devs must put some boundaries.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
    Akageshi likes this.
  2. nvmind

    nvmind Regular

    If he asks to be carried inf2, probably he has another character that have all the dungeons open and knows very well how all the dungeons looks like. Also, he knows very well what he is asking for, is not his first time in parallel world.

    I don't see how this would work. Not to let a player enter inf2 because his damage is too low ? If a weak player finds strong ones that can carry him in inf2, good for him. In the end is the strong player's choice to help a weak player, no one can force him to do so. And also, in my experience farming inf2 doesn't make you strong. You will get some good legendary items that will help you have an average character and this is something which should be easy for everyone to have. The real power in this game is the 4 gold line items, gems and runes and these are not from inf2. Being carried 5-10 times per day in inf2 means a lot of a beginner, but means exactly nothing if want to build a strong character. Bottom line, if someone asks to be carried in inf2, either accept or deny his request. No point in giving too much thought about it. He won't get very far by being carried inf2, he will have in the end a character that can farm mode1, maxim 2, not more.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
  3. MademoiselleCaramel

    MademoiselleCaramel Junior Expert

    Not dmg requirements, more like tier items. You cannot go on inf2 if you do not have 5 or whatever number of t4items.
     
  4. nvmind

    nvmind Regular

    lol :) that was funny. So he will ask first to go inf1 one round, get the items and then he will ask to be carried inf2 :)
     
  5. IKILLGIANTS

    IKILLGIANTS Active Author

    Thats a bad ideea,what if im inviting one or more friends in the game? Why would there be things like that stoping me to help him? What about the players who stop for a while and need to catch up with the game and have strong player friends?! What about guilds who are recruiting all levels and are willing to help weak or low level players? A big NO
     
  6. MademoiselleCaramel

    MademoiselleCaramel Junior Expert

    But for inf1 you will also need certain requirements. It does not have to be tier item, idk, it was the first thing that come on my mind. I just know that I saw in billion other games stuff like that, so you still kinda have to put some effort to go on higher maps. Only in dso you can jump from bottom to top.
     
  7. nvmind

    nvmind Regular

    There is already a requirement in in the game, is the player's level. You cannot enter any infernal if you are not lv 55.
    The thing is that is very easy and fast to get to level 55. You don't have time to get very strong, you can get to 55 and be very weak.
    Anyways, changing this and making the level 55 very hard to reach and only if you are strong, is again a bad idea for this game. It just doesn't work, the majority of players will give up way before reaching 55.

    One thing I fail to understand here. Why the no.1 weak player being carried by no.2 strong player makes the no. 3 random player uncomfortable, jealous and so on. Why can't the no.3 random player just have fun killing mobs solo, with his friends, guild mates and ignore the rest ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
  8. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    There is already solution in the game.
    You can't get a fragment or solve quests in any other difficulty than normal. Same would be applied to PW.
    Quests could be only finished in Painful difficulty.
     
  9. Akageshi

    Akageshi Board Analyst

    Definitely yes.

    I suggested an idea long ago to have a prerequisite that a player needs to finish painful x times, before entering excruciating, and so on all the way up to inf2.
    Tiers of items were an alternative part of the idea too.

    Needless to say everyone hated the idea... of bloody course.
     
    MademoiselleCaramel likes this.
  10. MademoiselleCaramel

    MademoiselleCaramel Junior Expert

    Yo Akageshi that is good idea.
    Btw, nvmind and Ikillgiants, if you so like to help friends and carry them, you might aswell help them with fullfilling those minimum requirements, eh?
     
  11. nvmind

    nvmind Regular

    exactly this is my point. If that weak player is carried in inf2, prior that he will be carried to do all the prerequisites. At the end of that he will be no more or less better than when he started with those extra requirements. how is this helping anyone in anyway at all ? is just making the game annoying and even more boring that already is.
    And to break down this idea and go into details, how many times a player should do mode 1 before moving to mode2 ? 10, 20, 50 times ?

    As an example, during my first leaderboards season I did gold for all by playing mode1 only. It was the maximum I could do. That was a lot of playing, really a lot and at the end I wasn't better at all. I still couldn't play mode 2. I only got better by crafting every single day for months and months.

    What I'm saying is that 100 runs in each mode will not make you good enough to play inf3, not even inf1, not by far. So where is the point in adding such prerequisites ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
  12. KingKrazy1

    KingKrazy1 Active Author

    The main reason you give for your suggestion is that new lvl 55 players are clueless. This is not the devs fault and forcing players to do more runs on the same map would not, as nvmind points out, enlighten them. If someone in your group asks to be carried above their place, you can choose whether or not to satisfy their wish.

    So when Q10 comes out, you would rather be forced to complete the quests on painful instead of choosing your own difficulty?

    I don't see how the current system is unfair or leads to any real problems with the game. No new lvl 55 character is going to solo infernal maps. Even if they could, then good for them. If instead someone chooses to help them out, that is their choice.
     
  13. Akageshi

    Akageshi Board Analyst

    RPG's are about progression. A game design that allows for getting top notch stuff too early, ignoring everything in between, is a bad game design. Also designing items like Untouchables or Amon's set is rendered pointless because everyone jumps straight to the top gear.

    Maybe you are all used to the whole "carry a weak/low level friend" thing in this game or other games too, but really the system is supposed to be such that you only play maps that are matching your power level. You form a group of people at that power level and together you try hard and with a victory fanfare you kill your first pw boss on painful, which was hard for you. This should give you a genuine feeling of satisfaction. What doesn't give you that feeling is collecting drop 5 tiers above your power or skill that was dropped by monsters you could never ever kill yourself.

    And before some of you retort: No, you don;t really have a choice. You are pretty much forced to be carried. The game is so badly designed in this regard, it's a must. Or else you will hardly make any progress or it will take too many years of grind.

    I know you guys don't care, because RPG ideals are something most of you don't care about. But one of the biggest mistakes a dungeon master in a certain desktop RPG can do is to let players be the kings too early in the game. It breaks immersion, it breaks sense of progression, and players don't value their items because they didn't have to work too hard to get them.

    Lastly, @MademoiselleCaramel's suggestion is certainly not supposed to help players so their game is easier. If your criteria for a new suggestion is just that the thing has to make the game easier for player, help them get stuff faster and whatnot, well, let's suggest all monsters and bosses are removed and we get drop automatically upon logging in lol. A game is a game because it throws hurdles in our way and we are provided with fun ways to overcome them. Do A and do B, succeed and you can do C and D and E. Succeed and you can do more, because you gradually get stronger.
     
    MademoiselleCaramel likes this.
  14. silverseas

    silverseas Forum Commissioner

    I have a suggestion that will basically have the same effect: delete Tegan server.

    Sure, it would be ideal that we only party with people of a similar power level, farming the same stuff. But look, I don't know what server you play on, but it's hard finding a party in Tegan. If you start handing out restrictions like candy, it's going to be nigh impossible to form a party to farm anything. On Tegan, as long as you are picking up strays in your group, there almost always will be a power difference.

    If you guys feel that one or more player(s) you are in a group with is not living up to your expectations in terms of skill at staying alive, time spent grinding, monies spent on andermants, etc, then I have a suggestion: Don't farm with them. Kick them. Leave the group. If they are annoying, block them.

    Don't be salty that new players take less time to get to a level that older players spent a long time reaching. If the game was made so that there was no way new players could ever catch up to old ones because of a stupid number of hurdles in between, there wouldn't be any new players coming in. As it stands right now, it takes a ton of grinding to reach that kind of endgame power level. The handful of runs a freeloader would get off you literally doesn't even make a difference in the overall scheme of things.
     
  15. KingKrazy1

    KingKrazy1 Active Author

    I agree with this. I never used those two sets even though I never play with toons above my power level. However, there is some restriction in the game currently. In order to do PW your first character must be level 50. Maybe this should be applied to all characters, but I think not.

    There is no content in this game locked behind the Infernal power level. Or put in another way, getting the super powerful stuff by being carried does not give any player access to new content. This is why I choose not to ask for anyone to carry me so I can get higher tier gear. I am fine with the grind.

    I don't know who said the game should be made easier, but you just said that going from tier 1 to tier 6 without being carried would take too many years.

    I would say I do care about the ideals of RPG. I don't think the main problem though is that new lvl 55 players can easily get high tier gear. The main problem is that the whole endgame itself was not designed and then put into place, it was made ad-hoc over a number of years. DSO should have an actual endgame with a fair and enjoyable progression system. Fix the crafting system (my main frustration), and give meaningful content and reasons for trying to do infernal difficulty other than to be strong in PVP. The main reason I am against locking dungeons for mixed power level groups is that it doesn't really do anything to fix the problems you have brought up. It wouldnt be a satisfying endgame, it would just be more grind on the same content.
     
  16. MademoiselleCaramel

    MademoiselleCaramel Junior Expert

    Wow, you wrote it perfectly. Where is "j'adore" option instead of like? :D

    Silverseas, I am sorry, I somehow always overlook the fact that there is a huge gap between servers, and we kinda play game on different level. I will not write more on that topic, or make suggestions cuz it is not allowed.
     
  17. Akageshi

    Akageshi Board Analyst

    Idk which concrete solution would fix the situation. Simply applying new requirements for higher difficulties without anything else to it, doesn't seem to do the trick.

    We all don't even agree on what's the problem. I see far too many people don't see any problem with painful level players getting infernal level gear. I guess I get triggered easily by cheeky players skipping everything in between. Which is adding to the already super unfair game, because some of them are lucky to find people to carry them, while others aren't.

    So we have unfair random crafting, we have unfair random drops from bosses, unfair random lucky spheres, gem bags and whatnot and we have unfair carry practices. Some people say it's fine the game is not fair. Idk what kinda planet I'm from, but fair play is what I want everywhere where it can be made so.

    Or should we just be like, nature is not fair, human society is not fair despite pretending to be, why should games be fair?
    It depends on what we want from games. To entertain us? To train us to cope better with real life? Or Idk... Sure thing is we as a civilization are constantly at least trying to achieve some fair conditions in sport, law and such. So I guess, fair play matters at least to some extent. Or should we play the game of Nietzsche by sticking to the philosophy of the strong entitled to have the right to reign because of their power, being only hurt and hindered by the weak and their fair play rules? This in the context of DSO: Lucky players get good stuff and do well, unlucky get nothing and can eat dirt.​

    In any case, what DSO does is not fair by any means.
     
  18. Hetsunien

    Hetsunien Padavan

    Totally agree.
     
  19. nvmind

    nvmind Regular

    Here is where we disagree. I don't know for how long are you playing this game, but what I can say from my long experience is that tier6 alone is definitely not top notch stuff. A mode1 player that is carried and gets equipped full tier6 is now a mode2 player. There is no place in the game where you can be carried and become OP, or top notch or whatever.
    To be OP you need all the below:
    - glyphs of power to get all items to lv 60
    - full equipped royal gems
    - many and big runes
    - 4 gold lines transferred in every item you wear

    None of the above are from being carried in inf123, but form playing a lot, and I mean a lot, in any mode, especially the low and faster modes. A player that does 10 times a map in mode 1 gets more resources and faster that one who is carried in inf mode 5 times.

    This is a farming game, designed for grinding, for spending a lot of time playing. There is no OP player in the game that was carried and made all he has on others back. If you see an OP player means one thing, he played a lot. The ones which are carried in inf and don't like farming by themselves, they won't get anywhere. That tier6 equipment without the glyphs, gems, runes and gold lines is totally useless.
     
    KingKrazy1 likes this.
  20. Akageshi

    Akageshi Board Analyst

    If 2 players have exactly the same stuff, only having different weapons:
    Player A has a good tier1 weapon,
    player B has a good tier6 weapon,
    which one of them is going to be better?

    Before you start replying,
    I have made a damage calculator (which actually works, mind you), and I can guarantee that:

    if both players have the same gear giving the same damage bonus (800) and the same rubies (33,33,33,33) and the same enchantments on their weapons (140% idoti + 60% id), and also they have the same wisdom points distribution, and the same amount of glyphs of power, BUT:

    -player A is using a 400 base dmg tier1 weapon
    -player B is using a 800 base dmg tier6 weapon,

    then

    player A has 10359 base damage
    and
    player B has 15339 base damage.

    You can see that a mere difference in tiers of the weapon in this case makes player B's damage output about 50% better.

    And if player A has worse base values on his gear like helmet, rings, etc., meaning he only has like tier1 or tier2 gear, which gives him 400 total damage on these items instead of 800, his base damage will be even worse of course. In this case exactly 9231.

    You have to trust my calculation, but I assure you I have tested it many times with different setups and it always gives me the correct result.


    So what I am saying is that if you have tier 6 stuff, that alone will make you awesome in comparison to players with the same amount of grinded stuff, only lacking your tier 6 gear.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018

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