Suggestion q7 for mages

Discussion in 'General Archive' started by rogue07, Jul 21, 2017.

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Replace q7 fireball cost reduction with lightning cost reduction?

  1. yes

    1 vote(s)
    10.0%
  2. no (please post why)

    9 vote(s)
    90.0%
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  1. rogue07

    rogue07 Someday Author

    For a pve set, I'm still clueless as to why it reduces "fireball" cost with 2/2 set bonus...
    like we all know fireball is crap in PvE and honestly, PvP is just dull as it is, so i dont really care for it...
    With so many ppl raging about SW spamming fireball in pvp, etc.. truth is, as a SW I don't even want this bonus.

    with how we all know in reality SWs are falling behind in PvE, and frozen sphere being as beautifully broken as it is - how about instead of useless fireball cost reduction, we get lightning strike cost reduced?

    Honestly, pouring all my mana into 2 hits, one dealing 250% and other doing 332% isnt very effective.. but as it stands, its the best long range damage source we have, sphere hitbox doesnt work properly and at bosses, the mid range is a death sentence...


    so yeah in short, replace fireball cost reduction in q7 with a more PvE effective buff - lightning cost reduction. even if players started spamming lightning in pve, it wouldnt be as toxic as fireball spam. and there's still sigris set for pvp anyway.
    If a SW can do about 4 lightning strike with 100 mana, then it would mean I'd no longer have to stand next to the tank and risk dying from aoe trying to use sphere.
    this way, SW gets to play as the long range class it was meant to be in PvE and not fall behind the other classes in terms of damage in PvE


    I really hope people like this idea, as honestly PvE is whats really important... Had i known SWs were potentially a PvP based class, i wouldnt have made SW my main in the first place, but as it stands SW is my main and I have devoted a lot of myself to this character.


    please consider this change, fireball is disgusting in pve :/ and this is supposed to be a pve set...
     
  2. MikeyMetro

    MikeyMetro Forum Overlooker

    Why? Well just because I feel the premise that any build revolves around a particular set bonus if flawed. SW is an excellent pve class without any sets. This would be the class I would consider switching to if RA becomes unplayable.

    Luck be with ye,
    Mikey,
    Tegan
     
  3. anolajen

    anolajen Someday Author

    no ... no one said set is meant to be pvp or pve
    pvp - fireball would become useless ( no dmg , high cost) lightning strike would stay useless ( cant hit moving target and in rare case when yes its only for 1/3 dmg +- )

    pve -fireball would be as useless as now but lightning strike ... well it s second best dmg spell withou cd right behind sphere ... you suggest halving its manacost .... seems like bad idea balance wise
     
  4. Озирис

    Озирис Forum Greenhorn

    You want use lightnings in PvE/! Fine, then use Bearach set + Sigris set - every ice shot reduces you -30 mana for lightnings and ur problem is solved!
    As for the q7 set - EDIT , which real mage is using that crap set for farm?! XD

    I have a better suggestion - current set bonus for 2/2 from Bearach set should be changed from 75% lightning dmgs from the main point lines to at least 100% base dmgs. Or the bonus from the weapon should be changed from 50% increased dmgs for current electrified foes to at least 75%.
     
    Last edited by moderator: Jul 21, 2017
  5. rogue07

    rogue07 Someday Author

    you do know that SW are the furthest behind in terms of sustained damage during end bosses, right?
    in the current meta, every other class is able to far out dps a SW due to the fact that their set bonuses actually benefit in PVE.

    Sigris ice missile doesnt go great dmg in PVE, unlike the 300% damage lightning all other classes get from sigris set.

    with q8 reducing net cool down (making q7 more effective) for rangers and the added 300% lightning; the rocket cooldown reduced from q8 or q7 for sm which makes q7 more effective again;not sure about dk, havent logged my dk in a while..
    and what do SWs get? a buff to ice missiles that STILL makes it deal less damage than magic missile, lol. while great for pvp, purely crap in pve.

    now for the q7 buff itself: rangers get 2 seconds to spam EA for free; sm if played properly, turret combinations have the highest end boss DPS; a good dk never really struggles with rage, with the proper combination of rage gaining skills used.

    at the moment SWs are the weakest PVE class, its pure fact. Yes we can clear mobs pretty fast, as it's supposed to be SW forte.
    I really hate the set bonuses they gave to SW sets, its all PvP focused..
    a 4 second stun from meteor as q7 added perk? lol.... sure, its very useful to flash an "immune" on an end boss.
    and then since you just used half your mana, now begins the magic missile spam and an occassional sphere or lightning strike for the next 9 seconds - or a destruction in between.


    if you actually DO switch to SW, i can assure you, that you will regret your decision in a very short amount of time. unless your focus is purely pvp, then yeah enjoy being the "broken pvp class" perks.

    also keep in mind you will be playing the most hated class in DSO, so if you encounter any issues, no one will bother - because simply "damned OP SWs".

    for example, look at my posts (me as the only one) during r194 feedback about how sphere doesnt deal its full damage or even within 40% of the max damage - literally no one bothered. so it remains and will probabaly always remain this way from now on - the "strongest" sustain skill in our arsenal, doesnt even work properly anymore.

    there are hundreds of SWs out there who dont need 10-15 fireballs per encounter in PVP, with the normal mana cost, and if using Mana Crystal from wisdom tree, you get around 5 fireballs, which is enough. and id also like to correct you about "no dmg" q7 doesnt just magically make fireball damage higher, all it does is reduce cost. nothing else.

    more often than not, 2 fireballs is enough in PVP against a target if you can land it.

    now about lightning, against moving targets it can still be a dozen times more useful than fireball in pve. i dont know about you, but with proper anticipation you can easily use lightning strike even on moving targets in PVE, its all about leading your target..

    balance wise, halving lightning strike cost is unbalanced how? you do realize rangers for instance get free EA spam from the set, right?

    DK banner removes all rage cost

    SM if using tactical turrets, have infinite steam regen.


    lightning strike can deal up to a maximum of 332% damage per strike when charged and costs half mana reserve; a ranger can get 300% dmg deal per precision shot against a marked target and costs around 1/4 concentration reserve; a dk can infinite smash each dealing 250% (i think) during banner or without banner you can still keep smashing near nonstop if you manage rage properly

    now take that into consideration and tell me, does 4 lightning per max mana really seem unbalanced?

    so yes, SWs are pure burst damage right now and no real sustain damage.
    i cant believe the amount of negative results this thread got, i guess at the end of the day, everyone still hates SWs bec of how OP they are in pvp, and would rather not agree to help a SW in any way.

    also make not that i am NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT OTHER CLASSES, i am complaining about my class, and what the designers have done to it.

    while every other class is benefitting from q7 so much in PvE, its yet again another PvP set... its pathetic seeing every other class out dps you by a mile, even with similar or less gear at bosses.



    if it were possible to transfer my gear over, my gems, etc - at this point id happily switch to ranger.
    since the pity parties side on every class except SW.



    while every other class is benefitting from the 150% dmg bonus and using it very efficiently, you're saying SWs shouldnt? because the devs decided to make a perfectly good set for all classes, give each of them means of sustaining dps during the buff - SWs have to spend half our mana just to activate the buff and then 9 seconds of struggling for mana... seems logical.

    problem is not solved in any way whatsoever. bearach has even lower damage potential at end bosses than herald.
    as it is right now anyway until the day it gets a buff - which is highly unlikely.


    i dont know why no one wants the pathetic fireball bonus removed from q7, pvp is just an additive part of the game, its not the primary focus... and with how BP has ZERO intention to promote teamplay and DSO still remains as one of the very few MMO that is mainly solo based...


    hell, i dont even want the ice missile crap in sigris set either, the 2 strongest pw sets for all classes is just simply ruined for SWs because for some ridiculous reason SW needs to be a pvp focused class.
    and truth be told, many SWs including me, dont rely on 10-20 fireballs every time we stop moving in a fight - and if you run out of mana, you do realize there's still sigris ice missiles, right?


    the amount of PVP potential at the cost of PVE on SW is beyond redundant.. but the meta always has and always will be - hate SWs. so yeah, this isnt going to go anywhere... as a pve focused player, i regret making SW my main...


    sure a pvp match every now and then is good fun and all, but at the end of the day we're all farming hours on end in pve. fireball seems VERY useful for that purpose. and saying we should use bearach instead is just blatantly unfair - in the end we'd still have less damage (no q7 buff)


    SW damage in PVE is just simply disgusting as it is right now. for teams, people prefer any other class but SW, and its very reasonable why.
    there are probably many SWs out there who are VERY happy with q7 and q8 because they get to feel special in PVP.



    gather the strongest SW, the strongest Ranger, the strongest 2h DK and the strongest SM on a server - then record the time they take to clear an end boss, you will see what i mean.

    if you want an even better means to test, then team each of them with a tank and then time it.

    i can assure you that SW will take the longest of all.



    I couldn't care less if the completely destroyed PVP on SW and made it the worst class for pvp, if it means bringing back the class to speed in PVE... pvp doesnt even add up to 5% of the entire game time for the majority of DSO players.

    with the grindfest that this game is right now - even less so.

    but in the end, this goes nowhere... its actually sad knowing how much time, effort, energy, sacrifice and money I've spent on this character, only to realize im maining the most hated class on DSO, purely because of toxic pvp players and what the devs have done to the class.


    when i first started, i chose mage because in every MMO, mages are the strongest PVE class and thats what i love about it. but that doesnt apply to DSO.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  6. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Rogue ... seriously ... you don't even play a SW long enough to know all the pros and cons.

    Here ... take a look at my SW ... it is nothing special compared to the SWs at live servers.

    [​IMG]

    I can clear any map in Infernal with ice missiles only by using my mouse.
     
  7. rogue07

    rogue07 Someday Author

    i dont need to spend 5 years in the game to know how a class works, or how other classes work.

    in regards to your SW...
    1. you're severely lacking in crit damage.
    2. your crit rate is not really as good as it should be considering how "well" geared the character is.
    3. you built a glass cannon class into a tank class; SW will never function as well as they should if you go tank.
    4. artaya ring of life and fajlnirs ring of frost? dude... even double belicose ring would've been FAR more efficient.
    5. by not using belicose ring, you've sacrificed a good 22% increased weapon damage from the 3/3 set bonus.

    in all, i see a PvP sw, geared to be tanky and not a PvE SW.
    the combinations of sets, bonuses, etc and the skills you're using shows that.
    you could've easily gained the armor value by going into shroud of untouchables and gold line armor enchants.
    darkness pauldrons are an old and ineffective concept at this point of the game, the meagre amount of crit rate it gives is simply not worth the rest you're losing.
    despite the fact that all your gear is max leveled, a lvl 55 geared SW can easily out perform you in terms of Dps, but yes would not really stand a chance in pvp.


    but in the end, this isnt about what your SW looks like. while you may assume Idk my own class only because I havent been here since the beginning, you're severely mistaken. when i play a game, i dont just run around pressing buttons - i do the math, i look up all info online, i test & experiment. but yes i do not claim to know "everything" but i do know good lot, and i take pride in what ive spent many hours into learning and calculating - a concept majority of DSO players have sadly forsaken.
    i do however feel no shame in accepting when i'm wrong - but only with proper proof. knowledge is something i appreciate, regardless of whom it may come from.

    in my time on DSO I've learned things from players that have played less than me, and have shared many things unknown to players who have been here for years - and vice versa.

    but this post and yours are both currently off topic, though i appreciate the time you put in, into showing me your SW.

    lets try to keep on topic, and without personal targetting - this isnt about me, this is about the entire DSO community that play the class.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
    Nostradamus88 likes this.
  8. trakilaki

    trakilaki Living Forum Legend

    Thanks.
    No it is not. The purpose of the post is to show you that
    No one uses fireballs in PvE ... concentrate on other skills.
    Also there is no need of changing q7 set just because you felt like you have to have LS cost reduction ...because you already have one. Q8 set and Ice Missiles.

    As to this part
    What I said earlier:
    My SW is nothing special.

    Also those items are the items I was using them for creating Wiki articles ... they are not selected to fit any build ... they are random and mostly plain (not crafted or crafted with very bad items).
    I have no time to play at two servers and collect items for crafting. I get what I can along the way.

    So yes ... no need to change the buff on q7 set ... as you already have alternative sets/items.

    EDIT
    ///////
    Just as you I am using Lightning Strike instead of Frozen Sphere ... I am usually not making videos ...but I will make an exception and create one only for you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
    -DeathRaider- likes this.
  9. -DeathRaider-

    -DeathRaider- Forum Pro

    I don't even play the mage much and I understand if you want to use lightning strike for pve, go for the Q4 set. For mage the q7 set is used for pvp and because you don't like pvp much, doesn't mean others don't do it. I just think the fireball mana reduction needs nerfed or other classes need something that can compete with that.
     
  10. Woudlopertje

    Woudlopertje Someday Author

    I would like to know what kind of Q8 set you are using because it seems like there is a hidden set. My set bonus only reduces 5 seconds on adrenaline.
     
  11. rogue07

    rogue07 Someday Author

    incorrect, q7 set is currently best set for PvE AND PvP for all classes at the moment. all set bonuses and such added in, and the effectiveness of the 150% buff while being able to sustain the skill costs.

    how do SWs come into this equation? i didnt just up and "feel" like it should be reducing cost of lightning instead of fireball, its just common sense that this set needs to be more effective for SWs as it is for literally every other class in the game.

    Lightning charging an enemy first after ice missile and lightning, then ice missile again, and then before impact lightning charge would have worn out - therefore losing the extra 82% damage (332-250=82) rendering lightning ineffective.
    so yeah, no.

    that will not be necessary. if it is "skill" that you're bringing into the equation albeit this topic has zero relation to that -- i can assure you its very possible to kill for example herald or heredur even on infernal with NO gear or even a weapon, i.e. naked.

    but is that efficient? spending an hour or more killing a boss, just to prove that it is possible? i dont think it is, and that is not the purpose of the topic.

    Its exactly because you don't play the class that this was as wrong as it is.
    1. bearach set changes the 33% lightning charge bonus damage to 50%, therefore increasing the damage by a measly 43% extra damage on the second strike.
    2. bearach lightning strike added perk does 75% base damage, therefore totalling to 375% + 75% = 450% damage. at the cost of half or nearly half your mana reserve.

    this is the issue, thats not what it is supposed to be, period. while every other class uses this to deal massive damage in PvE as well, SWs fall extremely short, why? because for some nonsensical reason they wanted to add another redundant PvP bonus for SW.

    the 150% bonus is a REALLY big buff, even with how inefficient it is mana wise, you can still outdps a SW with bear set while using herald set. even if you use a double lightning strike and blow out your entire mana, you would've dealt a LOT more damage than the bear lightning.



    so by what reasoning do you think SWs should be the ONLY class missing out on the herald buff? how does lowering a SWs damage potential and sustain this badly in PvE, just for an unnecessary advantage in PvP justify itself?

    a properly built, geared and crafted SW can easily do 30-40k fireball crits in PvP, even against an opponent with high resilience, its highly unlikely that they will survive more than 2-3 hits. and this is from players using bear staff, so no herald buff.

    so why does the class even need to be able to fire off 10-15 fireballs per encounter? does that not sound redundant to you?
    if you need a spam skill, once more there is sigris set, which again as i mentioned while every other class gets good damage bonus (lightning) SW gets a super powerful PvP bonus of ice spam, but in PvE ice spam does less damage than magic missile spam.


    the entire q7 and q8 set for SWs is just PvP perks. Meteor stunning targets, which of course you dont need in PvE. i have no clue why Bigpoint has no interest in making SWs stronger in PvE.

    The reason why i suggested a replacement of these bonuses is because i want to balance things, lower SWs PvP potential a bit, so that the class's PvE potential can be increased.

    I do like PvP, but sure as heck, the vast majority of this game isnt spending even 1/4 of their time in PvP, so there is no need to ruin an end game set just for that purpose only. we're all farming pve nonstop for hours nearly every day, and its the pve aspect that needs work...




    I admit i was wrong here, i was told by a ranger that his net cool down was reduced by sigris set, but i just looked it up and yeah it is adrenaline - i shouldve checked it myself instead.
    thanks for the info though.
     
  12. anolajen

    anolajen Someday Author

    if you want change mage q7 sure ... but lightning strike have q4 why have second q set for same skill ( and making q4 far behind)
    as i see q7 is build around meteor except the fireball reduction so why doesnt q7 just dramatically reduce meteror manacost ? considering fact that meteor have long cd ( even with all reducing possibilities its still nowhere close to spammable) you can safely cut cost even to zero withou making it broken ( even if you abuse vortex and mind control you get to 2 meteors per 30sec = 50mana /15sec saved

    pros : all q7 bonuses would work in pve
    cons : might be too big nerf for fireball in pvp ( maybe preserve part of reduction for example 10 making fireball cost 25 mana?instead current 10 )
     
    rogue07 likes this.
  13. _Baragain_

    _Baragain_ Living Forum Legend

    Here is one of the key things you are also forgetting... You ready?

    Each of the sets is elementally themed based on the PW it came from... why in hell would the set that comes from a fire boss enhance a lightning based skill? Especially since there is already a lightning based set from Q4 from the boss that uses lightning? Next, you're going to complain that the Q2 set is poison and 1H oriented and that it also ought to support your specific style of play.

    Put simply, if a set is not useful to you, don't use it. Find what does work for you and use that.

    P.S. Your own poll shows that you have no clue what you are talking about with an 8 to 1 difference where I'm rather certain that you are that 1.
     
  14. rogue07

    rogue07 Someday Author

    thats why i made a thread, i never said lightning is the only suggestion, it could be ANYTHING but fireball. since fireball simply and utterly sucks in pve, and a set that requires you to sustain and deal a ton of damage during a short time frame, this is completely irrelevant, no matter how you think about, can you come up with one reason why it should decrease fireball cost aside from the elemental setting?

    Secondly, q1 set turns destruction a physical spell into a fire spell, does this for every class.
    ever consider perhaps, it could turn lightning into a fire element? say perhaps plasma? doesnt seem to far stretched, hell it could even reduce some lightning dmg for cost reduction too.


    this is the epitome of how you blow things out of proportion and perspective. i have mentioned q8 in here somewhere too, do you see me asking, "hey, turn sigris from buffing ice missiles into idk... singularity? :DD"

    no. and getting back to point, q4 damage potential is 250% + 75% on initial strike (250% + 50%) + 75% on second strike, totalling to 775% damage on perfectly centrailed hit.

    but instead, with q7 lets say you use a mana potion after meteor to use double lightning, thats 250% + 332% and that totals to 582% damage, now lets say 2/3 of that base damage prior to damage increases or essence, and use the 150% buff = 1309% damage.



    therefore this set, is purely the most powerful set for every class. and here's the real issue;


    every single class has some form of bonus that makes the 150% more efficient by adding a means to sustain damage during the buff - for example how rangers get EA cost removed.
    (not class bashing)

    now tell me, why is it SW the only class that has to sit there chugging mana potions or to make the full use of this set?

    how is it logical that this set is focused on PVP for SW while its clearly the most powerful set for every other class, in PvE?

    no matter how well geared an SW is, if using bearach set - they will always do less damage than a similarly geared SW using herald set. this is pure fact.




    wrong again, my poll results show how strongly players refuse any change, even if it could benefit them.
    2. it shows SW hatred which is a big thing you already know, due to PVP, not that SWs asked to be OP in pvp, BP just decided it for themselves - to substantially lower their pve potential for the sake of pvp potential.
    3. it also shows the common "gaming meta" of disagreeing with any newer player, and denial to accept anything other than what they know.
    4. also keep in mind these forums have a good number of trolls too.


    highly unlikely all 8 anti votes or even half are maining SWs.





    leaving that aside, i tried. but its clearly never going to go anywhere so im going to request this thread be closed.


    Dso community is very happily band together to sing the, "brokensang, oh bugpoint" song, but then resume to loathe and disagree with one another unless it specifically benefits the person in question, even if it doesnt harm them - community health and growth are benign to their care.


    next time you all think of complaining about the company, realize the fact that a game only evolves and is only as good as its players. if the players are too egotistical and feel a constant hatred for one another, well.. look at where the game is now, and you will see the result.


    this is the result of nearly every single suggestion on the forums, nearly zero sense of connection with one another, yet again unless it benefits the specific person in question. this game's unmaking has been and will remain to be its players - not the company or its devs.

    dso community aren't MMO gamers, just solo gamers with no concern beyond their agendas.

    have a good day.
    End discussion.
     
  15. Woudlopertje

    Woudlopertje Someday Author

    I dont know why you keep basicly keep saying that your q7 set for mages is inferior to the other classes.
    IF played correctly you can have the q7 buff forever at PVE especially at boss rooms. Having 150% increased damage for a unlimited time isn't inferior to any of the other classes i would say.
    [​IMG]

    Here are the skills you can use to save some mana.

    With 2 points on magic missle you gain 5 mana per each succesfull hit.
    When using 5 points on teleport you get 100% of your mana back.
    With 7 points your singularity is reduced with 25 mana points and when you stand in your own singularity, the cooldown of all your other skills will get shorter and shorter.
    Spend 5 points on mindcontrol and you can use any skill you want without a cooldown for 1 second.
    And last use meteor to reduce the mana cost of your meteor.

    So why did i pick these skills?
    Step 1: Use a meteor

    Step 2:When you use mindcontrol you have 1 second (which is enough) to 1 singularity on yourself and if you're fast enough also on a horde of mobs. This way your singularity skill doesnt get any cooldown time at all. Since you used some points on singularity your mindcontrol cooldown time will get shorter.

    Step 3: Use teleport to get 100% of your mana back.(You are probably able to pull off 2 teleports before the singularity runs out) And start attacking the mobs with any skill you like to use. I would say go for ice sphere since this skill deals a good amount of damage and cost you less mana then lightning strike.

    So what can you do when you run out of mana meanwhile. You can use magic missile some players use Ice missile with q8 set.

    Once your singularity runs out repeat the steps because by that time all your skills are ready to use once again.

    Maybe this gives you an idea how to play a mage. You still have 34 talent points left to use it on whatever skill you like.

    I'm not a mage so sorry if i might be forgetting something my main is a ranger. Nevertheless I think that I'm pretty spot on with what I'm saying.

    Feel free to correct me or add something what can or should be changed.
     
    Shabono and wedrh like this.
  16. Erebus

    Erebus User

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