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Unique runes and a unique rune slot on certain items

Discussion in 'Creative Corner' started by Phyrix, Jun 21, 2019.

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  1. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Duke

    I feel that 1 slot for unique runes in weapons and items can be really powerfull.

    And when I say unique runes I mean something like this

    Rune of smash penetration

    [​IMG]

    but the list can go on and on

    Imagine 10% crit chance in special slot in weapon
    Or 25% bleeding damage to all attacks
    Or explosive arrow double fires per shot
    Or splits meteor into 5 smaller meteors
    Or ads 25% fire damage to smash
     
  2. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Padavan

    We PoE now.
     
  3. sargon234

    sargon234 Forum Ambassador

    i don't know man, isn't it going to destroy balance even more?

    And i think those type of runes will destroy balance in pvp, should they decide to put back runes and gems in pvp
    I think those specific unique runes should be deactivated in pvp
     
  4. Phyrix

    Phyrix Forum Duke

    Not PoE at all just looking to make current attacks more interesting considering the huge nerfs to dks coming also armor break in smash will be OP
    meteor or even mm splitting will be OP
    Theres many games with uniques that does that.
     
  5. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Baron

    Well...

    I'd rather make the experience tree way more complex, with more skills, more talents, more points per level, etc. (without increasing level cap).

    However... I'm not suggesting it since I fear they'd only screw it up even harder.
     
    Jhinstalock likes this.
  6. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Padavan

    Instead of runes, they could actually work on items that could provide some kind of different build paths.

    But that wont happen until DSO community comprehends that Q7 is a toxic set that needs to be reworked if you want any kind of diveristy in game.

    Also balancing requires reactive changes/patches. You cant slap a balancing patch once a year and act like job's done.
     
  7. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Baron

    Actually this short posts says everything that is there to say.
     
    .RakshaRanja. likes this.
  8. MaxDisappointed

    MaxDisappointed Forum Master

    Q7 isn't toxic, Q7 is the only way for some classes to be good enough.
    And then some mages talk about Q7 to do bad comparisons of classes and say that mages need improves on the class, what about comparing the classes equipping another set (not q7). Then you realize that mage is the best class and the others are dependant on a set, what about not buffing mages even more or nerfing other classes but focus on change and balance q7 set, that's the only thing allowing some classes to be powerful enough. I mean, rangers and DKs are underpowered classes that need improves and fixes but no one wanna see it because they are mad of a set (q7). We need to differentiate classes and sets, this way we will be able to do a real balance, not like now, "trying" to counteract a set, they are improving the skills and base of a class, this is not the way, you are creating a: powerful class vs powerful set on a bad class.
     
    Jhinstalock likes this.
  9. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Padavan

    This is the exact reason why Q7 is toxic.
    Set should never define a class. Class should define sets.
     
  10. MaxDisappointed

    MaxDisappointed Forum Master

    Yes, but if it's the only way to deal real damage for some classes... I mean, if there were real different options in the game, maybe we can say q7 is toxic, but with no more options... until they create more options I'll not say q7 is really something toxic, maybe now is only toxic for a mage who want to be the most dps class and he can't, but that's just ego.

    Then you agree with me that some changes and buffs on the mages this months are unnecessary, if they just had focused on doing things correctly since beginning. Now the situation should be reverted.
     
  11. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Padavan

    Q7 set is toxic for the game. Until Q7 is in the game in the form we know classes that require that set will never get better cause they "already have an option".
    No, I dont agree with you, especially on that. I think that has been clear enough already.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  12. Hetsunien

    Hetsunien Padavan

    While Q7 exists as it is now, there won't be other viable options for 3 of 4 classes. I mean, those 150% increased damage after using an ability is simply ridiculous. I can accept the spamming part of it, but no other 2H weapon will compete against that bonus if there's no similar buff on that weapon.

    Remember why SW has 2 more options, and that's because Q7 works with Fireballs (the worst farming ability for them), while Q4 increase the Lightning damage, adds a lightning cross and sum the electrified area with 5pts experience talent. The other one, the Bloodmage staff is viable because you can build a Mana based SW and spam FS with higher balanced DPS in-game. No other class has sets so on pair like these.
     
  13. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Padavan

    Actually, it's the spamming that breaks the set not the +150% hence why all 4 weapons (Premium, Q4, Q7 and Bloodmage) with their respective, necessary set parts could be considered usable (with bloodmage having the lead) meanwhile for other 3 classes Q7 is unarguably BiS and pretty much necessary at this point.

    If 9s of 150% bonus damage doesnt break a class yet 3s or 2s does you can exclude damage as the reason of "balancing issues".
    Q7 is never used with fireball. Fireball was only used on arena due to low cost and spamability pre-gearless PvP. It should be used with fireball (same as Q7 should be used with LS and CL and Q8 should be used with IM and FS) but fireballs damage is super weak and while casting it in rapid succession like FS or LS it deals only 65% of its damage due to burn not stacking.
    The increase is minor (33% --> 50% so from 333% to 375%) and cross damage is at most weak.
    5 pts. detonation is very unreliable on any walking boss and its unreliability (like LS's in general) contributes to why Q4 is very, very niche.

    Premium weapon unique value is equal to 100% base damage more on LS (from 250% --> 325% and 333% --> 432%)

    Also Q4 and Premium weapons are generally weaker due to -x% lightning resistance pet not existing in game (bearach should be changed).

    To make all these items viable for SW you'd have to:
    - Introduce lightning resistances reducing pet from DtU (pref bearach)

    - Change FB's base cost, 2, 3 and 5 pts. talents:
    - Base cost: 40 --> 33
    - 2 pts: FB's mana cost lowered by 5 --> Increases FB's damage by 15%
    - 3 pts: Increases FB's damage by 15% --> "Per successful hit: Affected enemies will suffer from burn debuff. Burn debuff: 25% base damage per second for 3s."
    - 5 pts: "Leaves a burning mark on the ground for 1.5s. Affected enemies will suffer from burn debuff. Burn debuff: 25% base damage per second for 3s." --> "Per successful hit of burning enemy: Consumes current burn debuff dealing remaining burn damage instantly."
    This talent is applied BEFORE 3 pts talent is applied. It should happen in this order to make sure burn is effective while hitting multiple fireballs in rapid succession (so damage doesnt go to waste). Simpler solution would be "Fireball deals 55% more damage to burning targets." since 138*1,55 = 214% (0,9% more than FB + burn)​

    - Change Q7 bonus from -25 mana on fireball to "Double damage from FB (138*2 = 276%) and FB's burn ([25*3]*2 = 150%), free FB if Q7 bonus is active". Duration lowered from 9s to 5s.

    - Change Q4 weapon bonus from changing "electrified" multiplier (from 33% to 50%) to adding +50% base damage to LS ([250+50]*1,33 = 400%) and CL ([60+50]*1,1*1,33 = 160%) and changing 2/2 set bonus cross damage from 75% to 100%.

    - Change Premium weapon's unique value from 30% to 50% (250*1,33*1,5 = 500)

    And now you have 4 build paths, split into 3 methods of applying DPS.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
    Hetsunien and ΣMiwel like this.
  14. ΣMiwel

    ΣMiwel Forum Baron

    The toxicity stems from the fact that there are no more options.

    The way I see the solution:
    1. Put an update in TS with changes to sets here and there. Some buffing, some nerfing.
    2. Hand out those sets.
    3. Make the update stay there for a month or so like this. Make some small changes on the way based on the feedback etc.
    4. After then, based on the feedback, rebalance the classes. The aim is:
      • Range: Ra > SW > SM >>> DK
      • Damage: SW > Ra = SM > DK
      • HP: DK > Ra > SM = SW
      • bonus: all the skills and sets should be useful; even if there is one particular top option, it shouldn't be OP through the roof
    5. Place the update in Live Servers.
    6. Do other stuff for three months.
    7. Then, if needed, do some slight rebalancing based on the feedback.
    8. Add next classes and make them fit with the balance.
    Will they do it? That is an ideal solution... even if they did half of the work but it was something like this, it could seriously improve the game as a whole. Oh... and reduce the immense amounts of grind required on everything.

    Exactly the solution for SW.

    Now, what to do with the other classes?

    And we need new 1h uniques / buffs to existing 1h uniques.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
    .RakshaRanja. likes this.
  15. Hetsunien

    Hetsunien Padavan

    Are you sure that spamming breaks the set, not the 150% damage bonus? We might have 2 completely different ways to see things, then, or I'm just seeing things only as Ranger, because I can spam 7 Explosive Arrows with Q4 and they're not as effective as 7 Q7 buffed EA. Hey, call me crazy but the same goes for 7 buffed Smashes vs 7 not buffed, and so on.

    The set was made to interact with Meteor and FB, the fact SW don't use FB is stated before, worst farming ability. It's like Q4 for Rangers, it was a set made for PvP not PvE.
     
  16. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Padavan

    Obviously buffed Smashes or EAs or FSs/LSs or HSs will deal more damage than unbuffed Smashes, EAs, FSs/LSs, HSs but for majority of endgame players Q7 buff adds about 50% (lower for better essences) total damage since it scales down with the amout of "% more damage" you have on your character aka the more "% more damage" the less total damage you get from that 150%.

    You can use EA (with 300 concentration) about 18 times during your entire rotation (300 --> 0 (+5 EAs) --> Adrenaline +300 --> 0 (+5 EAs) --> Resource pot +240 --> 0 (+4 EAs) --> Pot RoT [Resource over Time] +270 --> 0 (+4 EAs))

    No Q7 buffs for basic, 10s long rotation:
    18 EAs = 18*500/10 = 9000/10 = 900% dps.

    150% damage buff from Q7 is equal to 3,5 EA for basic, 10s long rotation:
    18 EAs (7 EAs buffed by Q7) = (11*500+7*750)/10 = 10750/10 = 1075% dps (bonus 150% damage from Q7 is responsible for 175% dps aka 20% of your rotation total damage).

    Free EAs from Q7 are equal to about 1 EA per second (10 EAs in total) for basic, 10s long rotation:
    18 EAs + 7 (Q7 limit)*1,4 (chance to reset the net) = 28 EAs
    25*500/10 = 14000/10 = 1400% dps (bonus EAs from Q7 are responsible for 500% dps aka 56% of your rotation total damage).

    1400% > 1075%
    56% > 20%
    Yeah, Im sure and so are numbers.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  17. gbit

    gbit Forum Pro

    for a war the Q7 breaking bonus is the +50% AS on smash, not the +150% damage.
    the AS bonus allow Q7 to reach the last breakpoint without much efforts, while with the same build (or near) Q4 reach the previous one breakpoint (3,6364 vs 3,0769); with sapphires perhaps it was possible to reach max breakpoint for Q4, I don't made calcs on this.
    if you consider only the +150% damage Q7 has best damage output with lower essence, but with purple and red Q4 is at the same level (this effect is due to the better base damage and bonus on smash of Q4, and because with higher essence the impact of the bonus is lowered).
    so is the AS bonus that make Q7 the best option for a DPS war.
    this happened before the changes on AS runes: now with a build pushed on attack speed a Q4 can reach max breakpoint and can matches Q7 (theorically, because if you get something from one side, you have to leave something else to another).
     
  18. .RakshaRanja.

    .RakshaRanja. Padavan

    The +150% damage is actually somewhat balanced. If only +150% damage would stay it would be on the "sigh, fine" side (obviously dwarves would profit the most since their turrets can be placed while Q7 is active due to turrets scaling on spawn rather than scaling in real time) and all classes could have the same buff duration.

    For dwarves and rangers it also isnt +150% damage.
    In ranger's case it's free EA.
    In dks case it's skill frames reduction.
    In dwarves case it's free (no cooldown since that's what limits this ability) and skill frames reduction - it's funny that it has to be dwarves that get both free ability and skill frames reduction (basically best of both worlds).

    That's a classic "DSO balance" case:
    SWs - just +150% (9s) [permanent uptime for skilled players]
    DKs - +150% and skill frames reduction (3s) [half-ish uptime for skilled players]
    RAs - +150% and no cost (2s) [chance to reset, uptime rng dependant (still better than SWs or DKs)]
    SMs - +150%, skill frames reduction and no cost (3s) [permanent uptime]
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
    gbit likes this.
  19. gbit

    gbit Forum Pro

    I agree with you for what concerns the +150% buff; since I play only DK I don't talk about classes I don't have experienced personally.
     
  20. heror

    heror Forum Baron

    Sorry to say it but its kind of BS. It will make off meta set better, sure but. 3,80 atack speed 150% inc dmg smash with armor break..... i mean.......

    So in order to make your q4/ other item viable you are copy pasting ranger s Ea effect to your smash. Ok next step is heavy shot restores 10 steam per hit. Frozen sphere gives 20% inc atack speed per hit. Actually the things i suggest are balanced. Armor break is free 80% inc dmg. Sou stack dmg on top of dmg to achive ballance. The idea sounds nice. But i suggest somekind of rewok. The fact that u are on 2h shouldnt give u godlike effects. So we copy pasting other char so we can try bypassing q7 while ALSO making q7 even more bonkers?

    And true we PoE now.
     

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